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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It begins, rumors of 4k camera challengers.

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Gavin Greenwalt said:
If we're discussing $8k 4k s35mm cameras... just imagine how awkward Scarlet 3k 2/3" for $6k would be right about now... :p
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Decent point, but many maintain that they still want it. In two weeks I bet there will be few who are willing to cop to it though.
 
Scarlet 2/3rds? Are we talking about for $3K or $6K?

Anyway, either way, would by two right now if I could do 48fps 3K.

Current Scarlet is like $16K for a package, once you've counted SSDs. And 3K 48fps once you've spent all that cash. Too expensive for me to buy in pairs, that's for sure!

FS700 doesn't do Genlock so it's out, even if its 4K RAW output goes >24p. Well. I guess if they output 240p RAW, I could forego genlock and just manually sync :)

I don't need 4K, I just need "significantly better than HD" plus 48fps (or 50p would do too).

I just want a great-looking 1080p image after I've stabilized camera, adjusted 3D convergence and keystoning. That's like 20% of your frame lost.

Any Bayer sensor above 2.5K should do the trick...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Erik Bien said:
Guess you've never directed a food spot.
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Good point.
However, in this case paper-thin 8 bit 24Mb/s h.264 doesn't really cut it for a food TVC.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
If we're discussing $8k 4k s35mm cameras... just imagine how awkward Scarlet 3k 2/3" for $6k would be right about now... :p
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Kinda part of my point. S35 is en Vogue.

I wouldn't have minded, though... :)

But HDRx is quite a nice thing to get, too...
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
If we're discussing $8k 4k s35mm cameras... just imagine how awkward Scarlet 3k 2/3" for $6k would be right about now... :p
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"4K for $8k" is a sensationalistic misleading title coined on a dslr video blog.

Scarlet 2/3" 3K RAW for $6k would be in a completely different context, and through simple pixel count comparison its pricing would seem awkward only to a portion of the camera market, mostly to those whose perception of professional image acquisition reality consists of own preference, info gathered on dslr-video & gadget sites and assumptions based on it.
 
Jay Birch said:
The other thing is, we are not discussing $8K 4K s35mm cameras.

We are discussing a 1080p camera that is "4K ready"... with no word of date, price or method for the 4K option. I'm very happy about this FS700, but it shouldn't be used to discuss 4K cameras.... yet.
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This is all predictable, giving yesterdays technology to string the market along, and even denying the feature until latter.

The fs700 is worth discussing just to point out how bad it is not to ship it 4k codec included and 4k out. This thread is meant to be about other things, but fs700 has turned out a whipping boy (even beating the low end jvc somehow).
 
Like to kick something off.

Ok, the fun continues. Panasonic is now releasing avc ultra, but guess what next year and soon released cameras that can be upgraded to it later. What a laugh. This thread is a great advertisement for Red cameras, instead of buying outdated equipment to upgrade to 4k latter, you can buy a Red Scarlet x now (and maybe get a much greater camera too then the ones announced so far) for a cheaper overall price. But the question is, what sort of Eng related workflow can the scarlet do, did they get around to implementing h264, or mpeg2 at least? That leaves the only real competitor so far, to be the Jvc, compared to the recently announced cameras of course.

The question now is what sort of Eng preferable workflow can be implemented on the scarlet or what sort f upgrades are needed. I'll kickoff, would any of you guys like to contribute (remember I abandoned scarlet when we were given a different more expensive camera without advanced warning, so have not read up on it's current capabilities. So some of this might be out).

Ability to lock down finale exposure and color balance at time of shooting? You set up the image like an old fashion 8 bit camera, the preference is recorded along with the footage (wherever it is 8, 10, 12 or 16 bit) to produce a usable copy on the spot.

Ability to produce industry standard workflow copy of footage for hand off in h264, mpeg2 or even mjpeg etc, at least fullhd version. Can scarlet do this? While red code could be useful if you are running it through a compatible editor (I had a local network TV station that handled format issues by recording direct from the old AV ports for commercials) otherwise it will require the camera internally, or external device ir computer program to transcode to these formats, but preferably record or co-record these. Any of this possible, or possible in future upgrade.

Integration into Eng equipment and lenses (many different styles of add ons) and live feeds. Are there modules planned for this?

A rig system to carry Eng equipment and look the part (like an Eng camera).

The simple fact is, that apart from the JVC, because their product is simply what they have always been about, smaller chipped more affordable low end pro cameras, the /industry is hoiting itself in the foot, if Red can cheaply breach the Eng gap. For the normal price of pro Eng gear the scarlet could be made to compete. It is about manufacturer's affordable opportunities.

So anybody else in that section of the market (I am lower end, semi cinematic focus) like to elaborate how to get scarlet to bridge this gap?
 
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7846/canon-set-to-announce-4k-120fps-raw-c500-and-a-cinema-1d-dslr-specs-and-price-revealed

Canon set to announce 4K 120fps RAW C500 and a Cinema 1D DSLR – specs and price revealed.

Canon are due to issue a press release ahead of NAB. What my source says about the new cameras is pretty extraordinary even in light of what Sony are doing with the FS700.

Canon will release a C500 for $25,000.

This is designed to be an Epic killer.

It is 4K at 120fps with EOS RAW via 3G HD-SDI. Officially certified raw recording deck solutions are being provided by Blackmagic and AJA.

At 60 fps EOS RAW from the C500 is 12 bit. This drops to a still impressive 10 bit at 120p.

The C500 also pumps out 1080p, 2K and Quad HD.

And now for the 4K DSLR…

Costing $10k. This is full frame and does ALL-I, IPB and MJPEG 4K.

Both the C500 and 4K EOS DSLR have log profiles.

Another feature is that it has a Super 35mm crop mode (like the D800 with DX crop mode) for compatibility with cinema lenses.

There’s also going to be 2 new zooms. Lightweight 2kg PL and EF mount cinema lenses. The first is a 15.5-47mm T2.2 and the second a 30-105mm T2.2. These are pricey cinema lenses at the $15,000 mark.

More news to follow.

Expect this to go official on Thursday afternoon GMT and in the morning in the US.
 
Oh, yes, they have also talked about a long top version that can get the workflow down to 25mb/s. I wonder how it compares to redray, or lack thereof. You can get cheap gains from long gopbliw bitrate, but risk image breakdown when the camera pans or the image changes a lot from motion, unless you have a very variable bit rate that can drop n a top at appropriate times, etc.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
Ok, the fun continues. Panasonic is now releasing avc ultra, but guess what next year and soon released cameras that can be upgraded to it later. What a laugh. This thread is a great advertisement for Red cameras, instead of buying outdated equipment to upgrade to 4k latter, you can buy a Red Scarlet x now
Click to expand...

Again, this can be turned vice versa..... You can get a "120fps ready" Scarlet, but you have to wait for X amount of time until you can actually upgrade to 120fps.

It seems like feature activation is the new marketing device.

(i'm really beginning to sound anti-RED these days.... that really isn't the case.... I'm just anti FUD)
 
Jay Birch said:
The other thing is, we are not discussing $8K 4K s35mm cameras.

We are discussing a 1080p camera that is "4K ready"... with no word of date, price or method for the 4K option. I'm very happy about this FS700, but it shouldn't be used to discuss 4K cameras.... yet.
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... and only 8bit 1080p camera :(
 
Jay Birch said:
Again, this can be turned vice versa..... You can get a "120fps ready" Scarlet, but you have to wait for X amount of time until you can actually upgrade to 120fps.

It seems like feature activation is the new marketing device.

(i'm really beginning to sound anti-RED these days.... that really isn't the case.... I'm just anti FUD)
Click to expand...

True.
 
It is insane, Canon. + Panasonic

It is insane, Canon. + Panasonic

Well, how many cameras, is this a bit of overkill, but I will tell you the secret.

It is crowding out. With this you offer so many cameras with such a range of features people loose focus of the competition, and stores cannot afford the shelf space to spare to smaller rivals. If you go to local supermarkets where I come from there are chocolate mainly sections filled with bars of a couple if companies, it does not matter that the smaller companies that go bust have better cheaper product, you can often find them on the bottom f the shelf, at the end or in the next candy section down the bottom further along. None of these are really interested in giving you great quality or value, as you could have had with 10-20 competitors in the space taken up, or the fact the whole candy section should be a quarter the size, with all those competitors. If you look at biscuits, TV dinners, many sections, it is the same, and so in cameras too. It is all to get your money, but denies us value.

Now 8k, I was reading one of these cameras was to use a 8k sensor, downsampled to 4k, as the c300 did from shd to fullhd. So, why not do a 8k camera, like Red is going too, in the first place. Is the EOS 1d c motion JPEG 4k, just an admission by Canon, that they can't do more than JVC's falcon bird processor, used on their cheaper consumer cameras, can? The price too, $15k, this is a feature set that should have been on the 5d mk III, not for $15k. Scarlet x is still the clear winnwr and choice, because it costs less for 4k now than any of the cameras so far except for the low performing JVC, which is still enough for many people. So, there really is only two cameras to choice from so far for 4k, depending on the quality you want, the other upgradable to 4k options (unless it is free and does not require extra recording equipment) might cost you similar to buying Scarlwt now and filming probably higher sensor quality 4k now, NO COMPETITION. The truth is likely profit again, charge more for less to get a hunk. The real price difference between the JVC and these other xaneras is probably little, and even the JVC maybe costly (I hear they have a $2k 4k consumer camera coming), so $4k for 4k should be doable for now. To be truely out there you should be producing 8k for these prices. Red, and SI, and even Drake, out the industry to shame for years, it is about time they shift into high gear again.

c500 4kp60, 120fps fullhd 2k mode (or do they mean 4k too??). Uncompressed 4k out. External box, and like the fs700, too record:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/04/canon-announces-development-of-4k-digital-cinema-cameras/

Eos 1d c 4k p24 mjpeg:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/04/...a-featuring-4k-high-resolution-video-capture/

Eosraw:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7825/canon-to-unveil-eosraw-recording-format-new-high-end-camera-specs

EOS c100 rumor, not 4k I guess:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/04/canon-announces-development-of-4k-digital-cinema-cameras/


Panasonic, 4k. Maybe 2 4k cameras, and a souped up 4/3 rds:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7793/panasonic-jumping-into-the-world-of-4k-at-nab-2012

.
 
Jay Birch said:
Again, this can be turned vice versa..... You can get a "120fps ready" Scarlet, but you have to wait for X amount of time until you can actually upgrade to 120fps.

It seems like feature activation is the new marketing device.
Click to expand...

Except with Red you're waiting for a free firmware update and with Sony it's a paid upgrade.

Still annoying but not the same thing.
 
He, he, Lee, another good point I forgot.
 
Going be a bit busy, anybody at NAB care to post on new products they see there, and how they fail against the Red offerings, or try to affect the Red market?

Remember, if you have not realised what is happening already, people will be picking this up on google, and this thread is a great advertisement for Red Scarlet and Epic, and against the competitors products we see here.

Actually, what is really needed is simplified complete camera and rig setup, handling and workflow guides for using the scarlet as a videographer, Eng, network TV, documentary, low and high end cinema camera, and as a personal camera, in paper and video. Would include lists of good software and tools for each shooting/workflow segment. Somebody like Steve (or was that David Mullen, could be paid to make them. This would be a great advertisement for Red cameras, showing people how they can use the system for their situation, worth thousands of sales, and a good research tool to pick on how to design the camera better for these segments, but also too drastically cut support. This is the brilliant strategy that Commodore (famously in a way, market wse) did with the Vic 20 and Commodore 64 computers in the 80's that greatly increased their appeal (not that we need anything that simple).

Actually, threads could be started asking people for feed back into how to improve the cameras for any type of production, edited versions, with spurious conversations culled by Jeff :-) , could be made. From this the cameras can be improved in general, and modules designed to fill in the blanks for variouse segments of the market (which is already being done to a degree I think), whith features that would be unsatisfactory to be included in the general camera. Threads for people to contribute about how to use the current camera for the various shooting types above could also contribute information to the above guides. How about it Red?
 
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