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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It begins, rumors of 4k camera challengers.

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Gotta love the FS700 blurb. So this is an FS100 that will be able to do 4k "in the future". And it has "excellent ergonomics". Really? Just like the FS100 (LOL)?

Reality is that all of these cameras will find buyers and the buyer of camera A will most likely diss camera B. Personally, I can't go past RAW - but that's me.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
"Why is this camera not a threat to Red? " - ay 4k camera is a verification of the philosophy that we've been progressing on that resolution is important.

Graeme
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I'm not sure I see how that negates competition or threat to current products. It is quite possible, in fact very likely, that new competing products would validate RED's strategies while simultaneously threatening their products. RED isn't in the business of predicting imaging trends, it is in the business of selling cameras.

I agree that RED products have a different enough feature set (HDRx, RAW internal recording) to differentiate from most other cameras, but some of the fundamental specs certainly will cause some customers to question why RED never offered some highly sought after specs in their $13k and $38k cameras that are now (not really now, supposedly June) available in Sony's <$10k camera.

Some of the basic specs that come to mind are:
-Much higher sensitivity
-Much higher frame rates
-Lower power consumption
-Lower price
 
Ivan Kovax said:
Noah...
Why is this camera not a threat to Red?
It is a 4:2:0 colourspace.
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Not over HDMI/HD-SDI, and what is raw recording but one R and B color sample recorded per quad pixel? It is not directly comparable but there are similarities.

Ivan Kovax said:
It only does highspeed at HD for 16 seconds, then 8 seconds...
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It may only do 8sec bursts of 240fps at full frame, but my Scarlet which costs more does 0 seconds, and EPIC which costs much more only does 120fps at the same frame size. 8sec at 240fps is 80sec of screen time at 24fps, I can't say I can imagine many situations that would require more than that, especially with Sony's end trigger option.

Ivan Kovax said:
At 4K, whenever that comes around, you seriously think it will still be able to do these speeds?
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It is possible that it wont, but someone who has used the camera reported you can record the overcranked footage to external recorders over hdmi or hd-sdi so it seems possible that will also work for 4k if it uses the same output mechanism. Either way, if you shoot such high framerates on EPIC, your image is too soft for 1080p delivery and you need to carry extra lenses for the crop. I imagine the extremely high sensitivity of the FS700 sensor will be a huge help when shooting such high framerates, especially up to 960fps.

Ivan Kovax said:
This is a suitable replacement for the EX3 imho and nothing more. This camera will not become the go-to camera for commercials, video clips or movies any more than the fs100 was.

A massive failure on their behalf is to not have created an option for a canon lens adapter at a time when the entire indie world went to the 5D and had heavily invested in lenses... this is one reason why this camera will fall in a strange place. Neither wil it be picked up by the indies, nor high end productions. It may very well find its home in the eng and efp world where camera ops are looking to upgrade to a next gen camera.

The reality is that there is no way in hell sony will release a camera with specs anything close to its F65, their flagship camera... they would be stabbng themselves in the foot. This camera will be usable in its niche, but dramatically hobbled compared to the big boys...
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I appreciate your point of view, but it doesn't mean much for you to say what Sony will and won't do or for you to make the specs seems smaller when they are equal or greater than RED's offerings. Sony is in a tough financial situation, it might make sense for their strategy to be to release a camera that beats all the competition and just sells enormous volume. There is a lot more money in selling a low end camera than a high end one. Also, F65 is 20MP and FS700 is 8MP, so there is a significant distinction from the resolution and build quality standpoint.

Also, I haven't bought one since I was planning to sell my FS100 since I now have a Scarlet, but I've heard good things about the metabones Canon EF adapter for Sony e-mount cameras.
 
Noah,

It sounds like you have buyers remorse.

Personally, my Epic is irreplaceable. I have made my money back several fold, and I have nothing to complain about.

I will definitely be keeping my Epic, and upgrading to dragon. If you find that another camera suits your needs better, then clearly that is the right tool for the job it would be foolish of you not to buy it. It is as simple as that.

As I said, I believe this new Sony will find its place in eng and efp work, but not so much the other markets I tend to work in. And I will eat my shoe if this new sony camera can do those frame rates to an external recorder at raw. :D

The thing is, everybody who buys this camera in June will have buyers remorse in July when Canon releases their 4K dslr. Just the way our industry is.

All the best,

Ivan

Ps. Thankyou for the info on the canon adapter. I did not know.
 
Can a moderator merge all the "OTHER 4K" camera discussion into a unified topic so as not to clutter up the Forum?

I see enough of C300 "destroys" the Red, now FS700 "destroys" the Red banter better reserved for DVXuser and other
places.

IF you took THOSE PRO's advice, you'd switch from a C300 to a 5D Mark III to a Nikon D800 to FS700 in less than 3 months and
every other "4K" anything coming up the river at NAB- I find their discussion rather unprofessional...
 
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I would not call it buyers remorse yet, I am happy with my purchase, and with price increases my Scarlet is now worth more than when I bought it. I love the effort RED put into the gamma curves and I hate working with video cameras with video gamma curves. I personally will be happy if i never have to deal with a panasonic/sony video gamma curve or a knee again. On the other hand, I have been experiencing issues moving to my Scarlet since most of my clients were quite happy with the FS100 compared to DSLRs and now with Scarlet, it can be hard to convince some clients that have been using FCP7 for years and would have a much more difficult workflow with Scarlet. I love the option of HDRx and the native latitude, and it will be especially useful for an upcoming project im prepping for, but it is a bit of a pain having to switch to 3k and 2k if i want HDRx or overcrank. Where is the 4k HDRx for scarlet that was once mentioned by red reps?

Of course it remains to be seen what this new Sony camera will actually deliver, clearly it will be a strong competitor, but I will most likely only trade in my Scarlet if the FS700 has latitude and gamma curves rivaling Scarlet and Dragon does not surface soon to bring Scarlet back into the competition. I must admit, it is quite amazing for some projects shooting on the FS100 and having super clean images at ISO6400 and beyond, I just hope that since Canon and Sony have that, RED can deliver it as well in a timely way.
 
Noah, I have been fighting that struggle for the past 4 years with clients, but somehow I convince them ;)

You know what, everytime I play and edit a few quick cuts on set in CS5.5, my clients are flabbergastered and wonder why they havent been using that the whole time :)
 
N.D. Paolo said:
Can an administrator merge all the "OTHER 4K" camera discussion into a unified topic so as not to clutter up the Forum?

I see enough of C300 "destroys" the Red, now FS700 "destroys" the Red banter better reserved for DVXuser and other
places.

IF you took THOSE PRO's advice, you'd switch from a C300 to a 5D Mark III to a Nikon D800 to FS700 in less than 3 months and
every other "4K" anything coming up the river at NAB- I find their discussion rather unprofessional...
Click to expand...

Where does this thread refer to anything destroying anything? Which pros are you talking about? I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest a 5dmk3/d800 over a c300 ever...

We are here discussing cameras whose existence directly affects the market for our RED cameras. RED set out to change the digital cinema camera market by challenging Sony/Panasonic/Canon/Arri, etc. Until recently most people have said the big camera companies were being pushed to release new products in response to RED's cameras, but now with multiple generations of cameras out there, I think it is quite relevant to RED owners to discuss with eachother and with RED how RED may or may not respond to these competitors and new technologies. RED did a great job of leaping into this market, but now that the rest of the market has leapt ahead with them I am curious to see how they will keep up. They haven't released a new sensor in over two years after all.
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Where does this thread refer to anything destroying anything?
... but now that the rest of the market has leapt ahead
with them I am curious to see how they will keep up. They haven't released a new sensor in over two years after all.
Click to expand...

"Lept ahead?" You just proved my point.

At least it was peaceful here for a while...

Psst... Noah- have you heard on the street,
there's 617 and 645 format cameras coming,
plus a cellphone that shoots "38MP"- MY GOD, quick everyone sell their Scarlets!

I'm sure Peter Jackson just halted production of the Hobbit to get these on set in 3D rigs
to replace the Epics...

I second my request for a moderator merge all the "OTHER 4K" camera discussion into a
unified topic so as not to clutter up the Forum?
 
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I've read the last few pages of this thread and everyone seems to be jumping on Noah for making logical observations for a upcoming camera's hypothetical specs and comparing them to current Epic/Scarlet functionality and cost. He does use the word "IF" and makes it clear that he's basing is assumptions off of the little info that is currently available. I mean, he owns a scarlet already and hasn't jumped to the 5Dmk3 or D800 or even said he's displeased with his purchase -- there's no need to attack him for his opinion. It's like the opposite of chicken little in here.

As for the FS700 (or any other 4k camera announced at NAB2012); realistically it comes down to price:performance and what you're willing to afford.

Claiming that the Scarlet is better without seeing the competition is REDiculous. Serious lack of foresight. Furthermore, even if the FS700 offers 4k and sustained 120fps at non-cropped/downscaled(?) 1080p (double that of Scarlet MX in both frame size and speed) and has low-light performance similar to FS100/F3 (30db is a little noisy, but 18db/ISO6400 is adequate) then the only time it should be ignored is if it does those things poorly (which given Sony's past products, isn't very likely.)

ALAS, if it costs $7500 for the camera, and then an additional $5000 for the 4k recorder (it's sony, so I wouldn't be surprised), then it still costs as much as a Scarlet, but has full-size XLRs, built-in NDs, and is ready to shoot out of the box at that price... In other words, still nothing to scoff at and as much of a direct competitor to SX as the Alexa/C300/F3 (if not more so because of its 4k RAW upgrade path). Plus, for some people, the over-the-counter availability of Sony products is the most valuable prospect of the camera.

Conversely, if Dragon opens up similar features on Scarlet (120fps 1080p of the entire sensor, insane lowlight performance, etc), then it re-ups the bar... HOWEVER, you'll also be paying an additional $5000 (or whatever it costs) above and beyond the original $10,000 of Scarlet, so you're still paying for that additional performance.

In both cases, no one knows for sure what's going to be announced next week and no one knows the definitive timeline of those announced products, so there's no point getting your knickers all bunched up. In the meantime, it's all conjecture, speculation, and hope that someone (RED or otherwise) will give us s35 4k RAW for <$5000 (if you're gonna dream, it's better to dream big, right?)
 
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I was summing up thoughts from several threads, not all directly aimed at Noah- don't take it that way.
Noah did use the right OFF Topic section after all, and is free to speak his mind.

I think professionals test and reserve statements until they have conclusive evidence,
and do not trust stated specs as better than another-
otherwise everyone would shoot with an iPad instead of Alexa
if all 1080p is created equal- right?

Hence why I was requesting a merging of all 4K off topic threads into perhaps a new topic.

My sincere hope for Noah is he makes serious dough with his Scarlet between now and June,
and then buy another Red or Sony by then if it better suits his needs...
 
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N.D. Paolo said:
"Lept ahead?" You just proved my point.

At least it was peaceful here for a while...

Psst... Noah- have you heard on the street,
there's 617 and 645 format cameras coming,
plus a cellphone that shoots "38MP"- MY GOD, quick everyone sell their Scarlets!

I'm sure Peter Jackson just halted production of the Hobbit to get these on set in 3D rigs
to replace the Epics...

I second my request for an administrator merge all the "OTHER 4K" camera discussion into a
unified topic so as not to clutter up the Forum?
Click to expand...

No need to be an ass, really.

The recently announced Fs700 is quite interesting, as it's lower priced than the Scarlet while providing better specs imo.
The only reason Red looks good is because the compition sucks. Hopefully this will change in 2012/2013
 
I guess you don't get sarcasm Steven, and I'll refrain from your language.

I have too much work to do today to enjoy the flames,
so I'll let you have the last word and repost your own previous words of wisdom:

"...Can we all please hold judgement until we see this cam in action?
It looks like it's going to be a very affordable 4k cam that doesn't require 4-5k in additional modules to make it boot up. Sort of like a Scarlet fixed.
I say GO JVC! "
 
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