Is this camera a joke?

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I think that Patryk has gone quite since he's most probably in post right now swearing about those half f...ed proxies that doesn't work, from the 16:9 4K files :wink:


fredrik

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

It's sounds like and by looking at you're reel that you figured you could take this camera out for a spin. I could be wrong but that was it seems like. Well in theory yes, but in practice no. Simply because the camera has small bugs that we the RED owner community knows of but not the person that rents it. The code errors are probably you trying to record redcode 36 on a CF card, or you changing format in the middle of things. These things are not possible and some will never be. It's small things that's very easy to skip when skimming the manual and other things which we know is not enabled yet.
The camera is not difficult to learn, you'll do that in less than a day, but the small tricks that needed will take longer (a few days).
As the camera is still a beta built it's important to have someone who knows it's weaknesses with you.

The DIT is just a new word for a clapper/loader and is important. The skills are different so you need new people that acknowledge that.

When film crews really know how to work with this camera 100% it might be a person (DIT) that's not needed anymore. I personally believe it will be the term for a clapper/loader instead. At this very moment the film crews doesn't take the time needed to learn this camera. It took me a weekend testing every single configuration, to see what was possible, what could lead to a problem and what was working like a charm. I don't think there was anyone at Patryk shoot who had done that (I could be wrong). At this point the film crews will start blaming the camera, especially since it so new.

regards,

Fredrik

There's a lot of truth to be found in that post! Well said, Fredrik.

 

[Steve Gal]

Patryk rented the accessories from me. I sent him a quote but he went with a private owner. They never used the camera before and did not from what I saw use an experienced DIT. They were asking to use a USB 1.1 Card reader at one point. Sounded like disaster from the very start. I am glad now that it wasn't my camera that they rented.

 

[Rainer Fritz]

I think that Patryk has gone quite since he's most probably in post right now swearing about those half f...ed proxies that doesn't work, from the 16:9 4K files :wink:


fredrik

Think also that they had no one on set, which knows a lot about the cam as on the workflow, and from the known troubles. I like to shoot on 2:1 4k .... :usd:

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

I guess its one of those, 'You've got to blame someone' scenarios and its either the guy thats not around to defend himself or the inanimate object (the Red) that takes the wrap. (no offence to those that have formed intimate relationships with their cameras and think their Reds can speak).

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

To avoid people having experiences like Patryk´s, we all have a responsebility to DEMAND that the people operating/renting our REDs have the necessary know-how and/or to make sure we also send out technical people (DIT) with our REDs.

We all stand to loose if we send out REDs with clients thinking they just rented "yet another videocamera".

My RED goes nowhere without a competent support person, up to date on all things RED.

 

[Andrew M.]

Very funny, I use firmware ver 13 and no problems.
I didn’t see Codec error even once.
People have to remember that more you push with lower aspect ratio 16:9 instead 2:1, more data is going in to the CF cards.
If you work with RAW 36 and you do want less data going to the CF card, change it to 2:1.

15-th lets you do it, 13-th don’t.
And if the “private” RED owner gave him not certified CF cards then here it goes.
I see Jim locking CF cards now for good and releasing Beta firmware only to certified Beta users.

 

[Jonas Nyström]

It sounds like Patryk had a crew, more into be funny guys, than solving problems (or having the knowledge to solve it)! 1AC should know how to use the camera (as well).

 

[Jonas Rejman]

The real Charlie Chaplin's on that set were you guys.
Make something idiot-proof, and they will build a better idiot.

Good, that you won't touch that camera again.

 

[laguun]

Hi Laguun,

I have shot over 1000 days with Sony cameras and never had a camera go down on a shoot. That's also been my experience with film cameras.

Stephen

we have seen 1 arricam lite, 1 aaton minima and 1 sony 900 going down within the last 24 months.

with sometimes >1000 shooting days a year, this is usual, at least in the the last 10 years (it was worse before that).

the 900 was killed in an accident, sony repaired it within 24 hours, and we meanwhile delivered a replacement in order to allow the client to continue shooting (he actually short-circuited the camera with water).

The Aaton minima was operator error. He could interrupt.
The Arricam had defect in the shutter which went unnoticed in the OVF (streaks as the filmtransport started slightly before shutter was done).

Therefore, most insurances for fullfeature *require* rental houses to have at least one replacement in house or wont allow productions to rent out. Thats typical for any >=$.$$$.$$$ budget production we have served.

 

[David Wyatt]

Sounds to me like:

1.They weren't using a release firmware build, which is a bit like Russian roulette on a commercial job. Maybe an early version of Build 15 or 14 - was it RocketIO errors they were getting? As Frederick noted a lot of the errors that can pop up might just be things like you're trying to record too high a speed for the resolution you're set at (i.e. operator errors that they're blaming on the camera). I think Patryk, if he could bare it, should post back with some more specific details about what the errors were and what they were trying to do.

2. No-one on the crew (DP, DIT (if there was one??), or ACs) was familiar with the camera. Again this is slightly suicidal - we send our own experienced DIT out with the camera come what may so we're guaranteed not to be in the same position. It's no good an AC reading a manual the night before and hoping for the best and a DP can't just turn up on set for the first time with a Red without testing it and hope to get some nice footage. If it were even possible do you think people would do the same if they were using a Phantom or a Dalsa Origin (i.e. with no specialized technician)?

3. I'm guessing by saying the frame rate displays improperly on the LCD screen he's referring to the Status Display which displays the Project frame rate rather than the Varispeed frame rate? I've not heard of this problem if he's referring to the Red LCD?

3. I think the give away line is, "The manual that makes it look so simple"...

As for all the quotes from the crew I actually feel sorry for this poor little Red camera being surrounded by such idiots - none of the "quotes/jokes" are remotely funny, certainly not "pure gold" and remind me of an episode of "The Office" (British version). And as for the grip's comments...that guy's doing nothing to dispel stereotypes about grips...I bet that went down a storm with the female members of the crew...really nice.

 

[laguun]

To avoid people having experiences like Patryk´s, we all have a responsebility to DEMAND that the people operating/renting our REDs have the necessary know-how and/or to make sure we also send out technical people (DIT) with our REDs.
We all stand to loose if we send out REDs with clients thinking they just rented "yet another videocamera".
My RED goes nowhere without a competent support person, up to date on all things RED.

I think many people forget that they have to understand their tools, especially then if they decide to work with a camera which is still some weeks clearly labeled as being in beta. Thats an dangerous attitue, no matter if you try to develop color negative yourself or install a new firmware on any camera.

I am not saying that this applies to the thread starter, its a general observation we made with many dps.

 

[Stephen Williams]

The Arricam had defect in the shutter which went unnoticed in the OVF (streaks as the filmtransport started slightly before shutter was done).

Hi,

Normally an insurance company requirement that cameras are film tested. It's been standard procedure for many years.

With respect an untested camera not working properly or operator error is not the same thing as a camera going down on a shoot.

Stephen

 

[Chris Pickle]

Patryk rented the accessories from me. I sent him a quote but he went with a private owner. They never used the camera before and did not from what I saw use an experienced DIT. They were asking to use a USB 1.1 Card reader at one point. Sounded like disaster from the very start. I am glad now that it wasn't my camera that they rented.

Wow, way to throw him under the bus in public--even though he did rent some gear from you. I'm surprised you felt the need to discuss the details of your customer in public. :blink:

Maybe I missed something, and he bagged on you in this forum?

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

I like how defensive of their camera redusers can be !
Of course with a thread title like that and the whole "jokes" thing Patryk was asking for trouble. I'm guessing he posted this coming from the shoot and feeling weary. Hopefully he'll be able to give some more information and constructive criticism once he's rested a bit. We don't know the whole story, it possibly wasn't his decision to not have a DIT on set, and then he just had to deal with it.

I already find this thread useful as a lesson that you should either rent out the camera with someone who knows the ins and outs of the camera, or make at least half a day's training of an AC mandatory. But renting it out with someone seems to be the best solution for now, as that person will also act as a scapegoat if something goes wrong and relieve tension on the DP and AC. We all know how stressful a shoot can be. There is still a lot of hype surrounding this camera, it is our duty as redusers to make sure anyone who rents it has a very clear picture of its idiosyncrasies.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Wow, way to throw him under the bus in public--even though he did rent some gear from you. I'm surprised you felt the need to discuss the details of your customer in public. :blink:

Maybe I missed something, and he bagged on you in this forum?

I don't think he "throws" him out there. There's no one attacking anyone here at this forum. We all assume and I feel he does as well. All he's trying to say is that his intuition is telling him that this incident seems to be what we all believe.

I think there's a lesson to be learnt here. Someone said it earlier and it deserves to be repeated. It's our responsibility to make sure that the clients have a know how to operate these cameras. That means a person who has had the the time to sit and be as geeky as us and read every post on REDUser HAHAHAHAHA.

In a way it's great and in another way it's bad. That the only way of really gathering info on this camera is through this website. It's great because a post can give instant reactions and help and it's bad when it comes to clients renting, who does not know about this website at at all.

Maybe Patryk did, maybe he didn't, anyway it's quite a big mess right now in terms of how to find knowledge for the camera but all this will settle down eventually.

Regards,


Fredrik

 

[laguun]

Hi,
Normally an insurance company requirement that cameras are film tested. It's been standard procedure for many years.
With respect an untested camera not working properly or operator error is not the same thing as a camera going down on a shoot.
Stephen

The arricam which went defective on set came from a quite well known munich basing camera rental company, which has a great reputation for keeping its gear up to top standard.

Things break. Thats life. No test will change that.

Regarding the insurances, i dont know how many multi-camera shots you are serving when renting out, or if you often negotiate 8 * 90 minutes productions, but i can tell you that backup is required for these jobs here, and i would not recommend to anyone to go without.

Insurances (i hope you never need them) can be *very* picky about having all requirements fulfilled when the damage is done, and are not *too* eager to inform you before shooting about the *small* details in those contracts. Very experienced producers do know that, and i have to back off on jobs which require more than 3 cameras of the same type for especially these reasons.

 

[dewaldaukema]

Hi Laguun,

I have shot over 1000 days with Sony cameras and never had a camera go down on a shoot. That's also been my experience with film cameras.

Stephen

Hi Stephen
Done more than probably 2000 + days on Sony's from Beta SP to HD. More than probably 20 to 30 breakdowns of some kind or the other. We work with incredibly complicated kit, unless we understand it backwards we should expect problems that can not be resolved on set. Get to know your gear Patryk.
Best

 

[Chris Pickle]

I don't think he "throws" him out there. There's no one attacking anyone here at this forum. We all assume and I feel he does as well. All he's trying to say is that his intuition is telling him that this incident seems to be what we all believe.

.............

Regards,


Fredrik

I think you missed my point. I think it's very unprofessional for a rental house to discuss the details of its customers in a public forum. Especially to imply that they were somehow inept.

I've rented PL glass from PSPS for a privately owned Red. As long as I pay my bill and don't bash them in public, I can't imagine PSPS posting their experience with me as a customer, regardless of what I think of the Red camera. That would be very bad form!!

 

[roryhinds]

I'm finding a lot of people are shooting RED and don't have the experience to deal with the cameras issues, which to be fair it has quite a few.

If you know what to look out for and how to deal with it when it happens a train crash can usually be avoided.

I'm finding I have to really work hard to sell clients on RED as they have had a very bad experience on a production because they never had the crew or the crew they had didn't know how to deal with RED.

Once REDCODE is finalised and REDCine is solid and of course the firmware ironed out shooting RED will be a breeze in the right hands.

Its still very much in development and steps need to be taken to get the best results.

Production has meet Post Production, the future is here... hire the right person for the job.

Nothing beats an experienced qualified crew.
And nothing beats shooting RED 4k with cinema lenses.