Is there any reason to shoot 23.976 anymore?

[Stephen Pruitt]

Hi all. . .

What with streaming being "the new normal," and streaming apparently being agnostic with respect to frame rate, I'm wondering if there is any reason to keep shooting at 23.976 instead of the "perfect 24."

I record my own audio and can set my 788T to any frame rate, so there should be no issues on that score.

Finally, if an over-the-air TV station requires 23.976, isn't it an easy fix to convert 24 to 23.976?

Thanks for your comments.

Stephen

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Yes kill that weird frame rate.
I know none will do it because the beleive it's the sandard.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I mean almost all our clients are broadcast and still only accept these frame rates: 23.98, 29.97, and 59.94.

So for shooting, almost everyone still does 23.98 for them (there's some occasional 29.97).

Broadcast is still a thing, and largest cable networks still deliver on-air and online. So as long as that's a thing, there will still be 23.98.

I understand it's annoying, but it's kind of like electric cars. They are the future, but not everyone is using them yet. So we still need gas stations.

 

[Christopher A. Bell]

Yes kill that weird frame rate.
I know none will do it because the beleive it's the sandard.

I wish they would have taken the opportunity when setting the standards for UHD/4K to kill off “fractional”/non-integer frame-rates like they did with interlace, but in ATSC(NTSC) land, speaking on “24P”, for pretty much everything but theatrical release movie production, 23.98 IS the standard. It’s not because we “believe” it’s the standard, it IS the standard. Hand over some 24.00 frame footage to a US network client and see how long it takes to get an angry phone call, which may be your last from them.

 

[Marc Wielage]

What with streaming being "the new normal," and streaming apparently being agnostic with respect to frame rate, I'm wondering if there is any reason to keep shooting at 23.976 instead of the "perfect 24." I record my own audio and can set my 788T to any frame rate, so there should be no issues on that score. Finally, if an over-the-air TV station requires 23.976, isn't it an easy fix to convert 24 to 23.976?

Over the air TV still requires 1080i 29.97, or 720P (depending on the network or cable channel). Last I checked Netflix and Amazon delivery specs, it was still 23.98 IMF (with a lot of specifics about codecs and audio track assignments and color space and closed captions).

If your primary audience is theatrical in theaters, shoot 24.00fps. If your primary audience will be streaming or broadcast TV, shoot 23.98. That's generally what we tell people. We have done many indie projects shot at 23.98 and converted them to 24.00fps for theatrical DCPs. There was a time when sound engineers were concerned about the loss of subtle audio details with this conversion, but I think SRC has gotten good enough now it's not really a concern.

If anybody wants to delve into the intricacies of workflow, they're covered well in these two books:

"Modern Post: Workflow & Techniques for Digital Filmmakers"
by Scott Arundale
https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Post-Workflows-Techniques-Filmmakers/dp/0415747023

"The Guide to Managing Postproduction for Film, TV, and Digital Distribution"
by Susan Spohr & Barbara Clark
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Managing-Postproduction-Digital-Distribution/dp/1138482811

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Thanks gentlemen. . . 23.98 it is. Alas. . .

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

BTW many film studios require that 24fps is the standard for their post. EVERYTHING at Paramount is 24fps. I accidently shot a scene early on for Spongebob the movie at 23.98 and received an angry phonecall from Paramount post. On all the Transformers we shot 24fps because we also shot some film. But that is now the norm for everything there. Also all the work I have done at Netflix has been at 24fps.

 

[Marc Wielage]

BTW many film studios require that 24fps is the standard for their post. EVERYTHING at Paramount is 24fps. I accidently shot a scene early on for Spongebob the movie at 23.98 and received an angry phonecall from Paramount post. On all the Transformers we shot 24fps because we also shot some film. But that is now the norm for everything there. Also all the work I have done at Netflix has been at 24fps.

They should "in theory" send out a post workflow document with everything in writing prior to the first day so there is absolutely no question how to do it. We just delivered a Netflix BTS documentary that was all 23.98. But 24.00fps can absolutely work as long as every department -- camera, sound, dailies, editing, VFX, color -- knows that it's got to all be 24.00fps. Consistency is important.

Marvel has been shooting 24.00fps for some time, but they set their own standards and have the power and budget to rigidly enforce it across all departments and vendors:

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I shoot everything 25p. One universal master. No audio pitching.
Hope one day the US will adopt it.

 

[Phil Holland]

Once I gather all the Infinity Stones it will be 24, 30, 60, and 120 fps.

But until then it's 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97, the dangerously new 30, 47.95, 48, 50, 59.94, 60, 119.88, and 120 for project time base as needed.

Filming and mastering at these various frame rates have a great deal of considerations behind them both in aesthetic as well as execution.

Weird how this unfolded, but it is the way it is for now.

Film-side. I've seen some more studios aim for 24p over 23.976 as of late, but I'd still say the lion's share of narrative goes to 23.976.


That said, and more Infinity Gauntlet thoughts, let's get electric globally to 60Hz. But that is a bigger snap to make.

 

[Christopher A. Bell]

And this mess is all because of a decision that was made about 70 years ago back in the 1950’s to keep B&W and Color TV compatible/interoperable. Of course, most of us (in NTSC/ATSC land) never really had to deal with or think about it until sometime in the last 20 years(with 24P, HD and “universal cameras”), but unfortunately we will probably still be dealing with it for the entirety of our careers(at least people around my age).

 

[Patrick Tresch]

That said, and more Infinity Gauntlet thoughts, let's get electric globally to 60Hz. But that is a bigger snap to make.

The most of the world is 50hz.

 

[Phil Holland]

The most of the world is 50hz.

Most of the world is wrong

Japan is exciting. When I film in the air or exteriors there's moments where there's a 60Hz and 50Hz split, which sucks for flicker.

I care not, but yes I am a 24fps and 60Hz sort of guy. Off to gather another stone for the gauntlet.

 

[Marc Wielage]

That said, and more Infinity Gauntlet thoughts, let's get electric globally to 60Hz. But that is a bigger snap to make.

Don't forget that the Eastern side of Japan is 50Hz, and the Western side is 60Hz. Japan is one of the most prosperous and technologically important countries in the world... and they don't have a single type of power. It's a complicated problem.

Workflow is one of those things that filmmakers have to discuss prior to production, and get the editor, post house, sound, color, and VFX all on board. As long as everybody agrees and it's in writing (emails, memos, etc.), then it's fine. But the trick is a lot of outside material -- 2nd unit footage, interviews, stock footage -- could very well be in the "wrong" standard. I've done tons of projects where we're working in 23.98 4K Raw, but the editor brings in HD stock footage in 24fps 8-bit H.264 or something. When we tell them, hey, we'd really like to deal with better quality, like at least 10-bit ProRes if not Raw... they give us a blank look and say, "why? This is what we got."

Even worse when they throw 9 different kinds of cameras into the mix. And we know that absolutely happens.

And this mess is all because of a decision that was made about 70 years ago back in the 1950’s to keep B&W and Color TV compatible/interoperable. Of course, most of us (in NTSC/ATSC land) never really had to deal with or think about it until sometime in the last 20 years(with 24P, HD and “universal cameras”), but unfortunately we will probably still be dealing with it for the entirety of our careers(at least people around my age).

Interesting footnote to the 60Hz/59.94 problem of compatible color in the 1950s: I was at a SMPTE meeting in the late 1990s where they were discussing the historical issues of the 1953 NTSC color standard. Up to that point, American TV had been 30fps. But the ugly rumor in 1954 was that color shows seen on B&W sets might have a herringbone pattern in the display because the color carrier caused "beat" interference under some conditions. That's the legend.

But the late-1990s SMPTE people said they had proof -- revealed 40 years after the fact -- that real-world tests showed that less than 5% of B&W sets would ever see the problem. The theory is that politics and commercial interests (perhaps, I don't know, made by the military/industrial complex) forced the change to 59.94 and a 29.97 frame rate instead of the much more simple 60Hz and 30fps frame rate. But... as the discussion leader explained, by the late 1990s, it was all a moot point. And they were well aware that the world was about to split into 23.976, 24.00fps, 16x9, 4x3, and all the other new standards we have now. Too late now to fix it.

BTW, when we were doing the initial technical tests on digital HD in 1997-1998, we were told that one major studio -- arguably the biggest studio in the world now -- was the lone holdout that demanded that the new HD standard include 23.98fps. Everybody else argued that 24fps would be so much neater and simpler, but the big studio was concerned about how 24-frame masters would convert to normal 29.97 interlaced standard-def. They knew that the math was simpler for 23.98 to 29.97, so they insisted on a 23.98 speed and threatened to walk out of the discussions if this wasn't included. And obviously, the committee capitulated.

I heard this story from two different major studio technical execs, so I have no reason to doubt that it's true. This was almost 25 years ago, and we're still feeling the effects of those decisions. I'm still pissed-off that FOX and ABC are 720P for broadcast, to tell you the truth.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Kill that 23.978 nonsense. The US will survive it!


Standard wise, I'm a big advocate for :


4k full container (1,896) 25p with subtitles in XML (and not burnt in the picture) for DCP release

Still working on the producers to accept it. But with time I know will get it done.

Next fight is to increase the data rates of jp2000 encoding for DCP release (to get that film grain usefull :devil: )

Patrick

 

[Phil Holland]

We're far from the origins of why 23.976 came into existence, but origin of built upon systems that have now grown to a very global market has produced this chaos.

NTSC was the source and broadcast was a part of the problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC

On that page there is a map of the world showing NTSC, PAL, and SECAM. One critical thing lost in modern times is for a very long time the majority of entertainment was made in NTSC lands. And even initially ATSC didn't support 25 and 50, though it does now.

It's mess and amazing considering some of this went down the 90s through 2010-ish.

Though streaming now has set the world on fire, when the market really changed was the era and explosion of cable. Which had potentially to right the ship in the 2000s, but didn't exactly.

Streaming however does have the potential to right the ship as the technology infrastructure allows for it really.

And I don't think it's worth bringing up interlaced, but glass that's a dead horse in our industry at this point. Peter has known me for a while and I'm fortunate to have avoided interlaced as a concept professionally, though it did impact dailies and tape related things back when it was all film.

 

[Garrett Smith]

I always shoot with my Project Time Base set at 24fps. I used to have a couple of magnetic ballasts for my HMI's and needed whole number frame rates to prevent flicker.

It's dead simple to export a 24fps project to 23.976 for broadcast and CTV, so I've never looked back.

 

[Björn Benckert]

When in post what is nice is to have all material with the same playback rate for realtime. Perosnally I´m allergic to playback above 25p. I see no benefit what so ever. 24p works even better than 25p as I see it. The arguments made that you can have faster wip pans etc if playback is done at higher framerates I dont care for, it simply looks much less apealing so better work around the low framerate issues.

When shooting 23.967 works really poor in 50HZ countries, lights flicker TVs get a ghoosting effect etc. Same with 25p in 60Hz places I think 23.967 works better than 24p in 60Hz light, no? Or why else is such format invented?

 

[Marc Wielage]

When shooting 23.967 works really poor in 50HZ countries, lights flicker TVs get a ghoosting effect etc. Same with 25p in 60Hz places I think 23.967 works better than 24p in 60Hz light, no? Or why else is such format invented?

I think you mean 23.976, but yeah. There are thousands of major feature films shooting around the world in 24fps and have been for almost 100 years (since sound film was invented around 1927), so I think they've got the 50Hz light flicker/TV screen thing covered already.

Converting 24.00fps -> 23.976fps is pretty easy in post: the sample rate conversion for audio is pretty straightforward now, and there's no visual artifacts when you render out that way in any major mastering program. Again, the problem is when people try to cram in 23.98, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97, and 30.00fps and varispeed slo-mo speed ramp material all in the same show (particularly documentaries), and you start winding up with timing problems and visual flaws. This creates a lot of workflow problems in trying to sort it all out and get it to work smoothly.

If it's a brand-new production and everything is shot from scratch, then as long as it's all at the same speed -- like 24fps -- it's fine. Go check out the delivery specs for Netflix, Amazon, and Apple and you'll get a good idea of the challenges facing filmmakers in a streaming world.