Is the future 60fps?

[David Mullen ASC]

I saw that film awhile ago on the upper west side, and i still tell people who will listen to me about that table popping--you could almost grab those cheese squares!

It's funny that we remember exact the same thing about that movie -- why cheese cubes? Looked like Star Trek food... I also found myself looking at the electric cord going to the table lamp and wondering if it was period. But 3D IMAX is still cool...

3-camera/projector Cinerama was another invention that created a hyper-real effect on the big screen, and was somewhat difficult to adapt to narrative.

There should be more of these types of movies, but not everything needs to be in that hyper-real style. A Super-16 movie like Mike Leigh's "Vera Drake" wouldn't necessarily benefit from being shot in a 60 fps 8K 3D format, let's say, whereas it would be cool for an action movie.

In terms of color and sound, probably the best early sound or color movies were the ones to use them for psychological effect rather than greater realism. There's a good essay by Carl Dreyer on the use of color in movies and how so few films (by the mid 1950's when he wrote it) managed to use color in an original and interesting manner. It was similar to the earlier arguments against sound in that mechanical reproduction of reality isn't justification enough, that it has to serve an artistic idea.

 

[Poi Boy]

I don't think it was for you Eugenia, you are no knucklehead.
Aloha
-A

 

[number6]

I don't think it was for you Eugenia, you are no knucklehead.
Aloha
-A

More like a mover and shaker... Since I've been visiting REDuser.net, I have never seen one toss-up question(s) evoke so much passion. You are a real button-pusher! (Not that THAT is a bad think)

 

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

1) I don't care that most of the world's population lives outside of the United States because most of the world's FILM INDUSTRY is right in the U.S. In fact about 90% of the movie industry is dominated by the United States. We are the world's only super power when it comes to film, and have been since the 1920s when German cinema was arguably bigger than U.S. cinema, as was perhaps Soviet cinema. Since World War II, America has dominated the film world and you know that. I know there will always be foreign filmmakers who are insulted to hear that, because they don't like to hear the facts, but you need look no further than the worldwide box office charts to see that our movies absolutely and COMPLETELY dominate the cultures of every nation in the world that plays our movies. And don't for a second think that I am not educated about foreign film because I come from a background in film criticism and film history, so I absolutely love many foreign movies, especially Kurosawa's work from Japan, Hong Kong action movies, French New Wave films (Contempt is especially vibrant, for instance), a few Italian Neo Realist films, I love Japanese animation (Hayao Miyazaki), and there are great movies made in every country. But it's not incorrect to generalize film standards based on what is done in the U.S., because this country is where the film industry is based, has been so for 80 years and will be so for quite a long time into the future until there is unleashed a much greater wave of competition. So enough with that argument. I'm not concerned with film standards in other countries right now, it has no interest to me.

2) When I say I think anyone who likes grain is a moron, I'm obviously giving my opinion, because there is no fact about art really, it's about interpretation and opinions. But you misunderstand what I'm saying, I think, because I can see times where you would WANT grain (to show old footage, for instance, or to imply something along those lines), but I'm talking about when people think that grain present in all film stock actually makes it better, now that's ridiculous. That is as backwards and completely stupid as saying that a car is better if it has scratches on it because it adds "character." That is an opinion, but it's also a really stupid opinion that really can't be justified logically.

3) Vinney, who the hell are you, and who really cares? Your very existence is both stupid and insulting, now go back into your cave.

Nice Behaviour....

Thank God you are not typical specimen of US.

 

[Finner]

Don't worry nathanail I don't think anyone on this board would be dumb enough to classify this clown as a typical American. Heck every country has a national embarrassment its just unfortunate that yours has found this site.

Shit he puts Hoff to shame.

 

[SF Geek]

We and our President would like to say that our National Embarrasements are a high proirity and that they rank number one in internetical aptitude. Mission accomplished!

 

[Joe Carney]

Nice Behaviour....

Thank God you are not typical specimen of US.

Thank God you know the difference !!!

 

[number6]

We and our President would like to say that our National Embarrasements are a high proirity and that they rank number one in internetical aptitude. Mission accomplished!

Whew!!! Close call! I almost responded to a political comment. We'll be discussin' religion next. RED Team, better hurry... the natives are gettin' restless!

 

[Keith Alan Morris]

>Hyper-real is too much.

That's what they said in 1928 about sound and color too.

>And on this random thread [...] knuckleheads popping up

I hope you didn't write this for me, because I came here with the best intentions for a serious discussion.

definitely not you!

 

[krd]

>Hyper-real is too much.

That's what they said in 1928 about sound and color too.

Eugenia,

Forgive me for putting it this crudely, but do you actually like traditional dramatic cinema? It seems as if what you're arguing for is some kind of yet uninvented form of entertainment more like video games than movies as we know them today. Insisting that more or less traditional dramatic films should be immersive virtual or sensory experiences is like saying that novels should have speakers and screens, because narrative prose is 2000 years old, and why fight new technology.

Maybe what you want is a different kind of cinema, not the old cinema running at a new speed. Even if you could prove (which you haven't!) that 60fps is more emotionally involving than 24fps, there's no reason to think traditional cinema would benefit from more "reality". Part of the experience of viewing Casablanca or Andrei Rublev (to run the gamut of tastes) is the veil of unreality that projected 24fps film interposes between the subject and the viewer. Which is one reason people go to the movies, no?

You may want to rip that veil away, but if the material behind it is traditional narrative, you could be left with something which feels more like reality TV with a script, and lots of people changing the channel, because the human craving for alternative realities isn't being satisfied.

 

[Antoine Fabi]

Interesting discussion really.

Here's how i see it...

Here's why, i think 24 fps has a so pleasing effect.

Reality is infinitely "refreshed", constant, it looks banal as long as it IS banal.

But as soon as something very pleasing or frightening happens, we tend to remember a precise moment...a picture in our brain.

I think 24p is just slow enough our brain has time to "isolate" pictures, thus making them more important...or greatly different from reality.

It is "distant" as not "real".

...and 24p is just fast enough for motion rendition.

that's my humble opinion.

Cheers!

Antoine

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Cool thoughts, Antoine...


Fast enough to give motion.
Slow enough to be "unreal".


The magic border...

 

[Ace]

1) I don't care that most of the world's population lives outside of the United States because most of the world's FILM INDUSTRY is right in the U.S. In fact about 90% of the movie industry is dominated by the United States. We are the world's only super power when it comes to film, and have been since the 1920s when German cinema was arguably bigger than U.S. cinema, as was perhaps Soviet cinema. Since World War II, America has dominated the film world and you know that. I know there will always be foreign filmmakers who are insulted to hear that, because they don't like to hear the facts, but you need look no further than the worldwide box office charts to see that our movies absolutely and COMPLETELY dominate the cultures of every nation in the world that plays our movies. And don't for a second think that I am not educated about foreign film because I come from a background in film criticism and film history, so I absolutely love many foreign movies, especially Kurosawa's work from Japan, Hong Kong action movies, French New Wave films (Contempt is especially vibrant, for instance), a few Italian Neo Realist films, I love Japanese animation (Hayao Miyazaki), and there are great movies made in every country. But it's not incorrect to generalize film standards based on what is done in the U.S., because this country is where the film industry is based, has been so for 80 years and will be so for quite a long time into the future until there is unleashed a much greater wave of competition. So enough with that argument. I'm not concerned with film standards in other countries right now, it has no interest to me.

2) When I say I think anyone who likes grain is a moron, I'm obviously giving my opinion, because there is no fact about art really, it's about interpretation and opinions. But you misunderstand what I'm saying, I think, because I can see times where you would WANT grain (to show old footage, for instance, or to imply something along those lines), but I'm talking about when people think that grain present in all film stock actually makes it better, now that's ridiculous. That is as backwards and completely stupid as saying that a car is better if it has scratches on it because it adds "character." That is an opinion, but it's also a really stupid opinion that really can't be justified logically.

3) Vinney, who the hell are you, and who really cares? Your very existence is both stupid and insulting, now go back into your cave.

dont..

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The power of blur

The power of blur

I had the great fortune of sitting front row center for the screening of "Crossing The Line" at NAB in 4K. I found much to love in the images created with Boris & Natasha by PJ & Co.but was struck by how overwhelming the motion blur was.

I agree with many of the posters who cite viewer conditioning as the primary factor driving perception, and, perhaps more to the point, influencing the viewer's assignment of operative schema. The interaction of the human visual system with the brain - the processing of imagery as it progresses through pattern recognition into various levels of cognitive association is wholly dependent on pre-existing information. I also agree with posters who feel like the eye/brain combo has limited bandwidth and does a great deal of blur interpretation. Now that I have covered my a$$, here is my point:

The motion media viewing experience for 99% of the population over the last several decades has a host of issues that have a dramatic impact on perception (using that term generically for this discussion). The list of factors that play into the home TV watching environment are well beyond the scope of this post so lets just talk about theatre presentation.

Several threads have already plumbed the limitations of everything from how many line pairs per mm a lens can resolve to the limitations of the lower cost stock used for most release prints of even big budget films. Suffice it say that outside of professional post facilities it is NOT typical for viewers to see much more than 1000 lines of information, I will avoid several salient issues concerning color accuracy, contrast and the like in the interest of brevity (stop laughing at me).

The crux of the biscuit is that until I saw a 4K image from up close I had never so clearly perceived the amount of motion blur in material acquired at 1/48th of a second. I had seen it many times on single frames in the edit bay but it really wasn't noticeable at full speed playback.

When I walked out of the NAB demo the first thing I said to Ted, Graeme and Evin was that clean 4K presentation viewed from the first few rows was going to expose the true impact of motion blur at 24fps 180° shutter. I then blurted out a completely unsupportable notioon that 60fps would take over the world.

To put all this in context I do feel that the evolution of display tech will adjust our "set points" for dreamy, newsy, hyper-reality, etc in a complex dance with frame rates, color gamuts, et al. Kind of like editing for MTV requires fewer frames for a flash cut because the younger viewers have learned to process iconic data at a higher rate. We as creators of motion media need to be aware that many of the core reference points are changing.

 

[Obin Olson]

I would NEVER tell a dramatic non reality story on anything above 24fps. looks like low-end production to my eye.

 

[Poi Boy]

right on Blair ! and never say never.
Aloha
-A

 

[Daniel Gourley]

So if you are worried about motion blur than change your shutter speed and use more light. Then if you complain about strobing...well then it is Television news after all isn't it????

 

[John Godden]

Hi all, I am new here. I am only a viewer (and tech journalist), but not a film maker. I bought a Canon HV20 yesterday, and I got so enthusiastic about it that more and more online research presented me to the glory of the RED camera and its potential!

snip..............................

Hi Eugenia

Thanks for posting this question.

How's that HV20 working out for you? Have you mastered panning with this camera?

I'm just so-so satisfied with my HV20. I've found that it's tough to impossible to capture decent clips when the camera isn't locked-down. However, when not panning, the captured images are very good: both 60i and 24P.

Kind regards for a fellow 60P dreamer. Would love to see a HV30 or mini-Red with 60P capability.

Sorry you got so much crap over this issue.
JohnG

 

[Poi Boy]

pretopost,"television news" kind of condesending ! open your mind to the possibilities of all frame rates.
Aloha
-a

 

[Vlado Struhar]

Hi Eugenia

Thanks for posting this question.

How's that HV20 working out for you? Have you mastered panning with this camera?

I'm just so-so satisfied with my HV20. I've found that it's tough to impossible to capture decent clips when the camera isn't locked-down. However, when not panning, the captured images are very good: both 60i and 24P.

Kind regards for a fellow 60P dreamer. Would love to see a HV30 or mini-Red with 60P capability.

Sorry you got so much crap over this issue.
JohnG

Here's another wiseguy.