Is it right time to invest in lenses now???

[Harcharan Singh]

Hi,

We are planning to invest in lenses as the Master Primes,Cooke S5i and Ultraprimes.

As they are very expensive lenses I wanted an opinion on the coverage of these lenses on
EPIC 5K and what may change in case there is an increase in resolution from 5K to maybe 6K in
dragon sensor which is I think around the corner....Will these lenses cover the sensor?

Thanks

Harcharan

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hi,

We are planning to invest in lenses as the Master Primes,Cooke S5i and Ultraprimes.

As they are very expensive lenses I wanted an opinion on the coverage of these lenses on
EPIC 5K and what may change in case there is an increase in resolution from 5K to maybe 6K in
dragon sensor which is I think around the corner....Will these lenses cover the sensor?

Thanks

Harcharan

Dunno about the others, but Masters are good

 

[Harcharan Singh]

Hi,

Thanks Gunleik
Just wondering the coverage of Master Primes on an 8K dragon sensor...Your views on it


HS

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Though the sensor might have higher resolution, this doesn't mean its necessarily going to be larger.

Red defines more photosites on a per square mm than others would--in effect claiming the sensor is capable of higher resolution. It certainly is, but 5K is pushing the MX sensor, whereas a Dragon upgrade could be the same size but more capable. Perhaps Red has figured out a better way to extract pixels from their sensor's recipe.

In contrast, the 'other' camera over-samples heavily to get its 1080 output. What many of us hope to see out of Dragon is not a resolution space race, but more oversampling--for better color stability, underexposure performance and other subtle gains.

Knowing Red, they will pull off both in one move. But I highly doubt we will see an upgrade that makes the pantheon of cinema lenses unusable. That would be madness. The 5K frame difference on the Epic is because Red used firmware to extract more information from the same sensor . With Dragon, Red is giving us a whole new beast.

 

[Scott Crawley]

You are certainly asking the right questions, I think. How long do you need to recover your investment? How long do you expect them to retain value?

In the short term my guess is yes, but I don't think that glass is the same blue chip, long term investment that it once was. If the current resolution trend continues and larger sensors trickle down into consumer markets, I'm hedging my bets that top end production will be moving to larger sensors within the next eight to ten years. It may even be closer to five.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

I think the better question in the medium term is... RED Electronic mount and lenses. If they're as big a deal as I suspect they might be, they might just stand the entire world of cinema glass on its head. I'm buying odd bits of glass here and there and, (never thought I'd say it!) I'm even looking at springing for a set of RPPs at the right price. But I won't invest serious money in glass until I see what RED pull out of the electronic lens hat.

(Jim, Jarred, it's been all quiet on the electronic lens front for some time, if you've canned the idea please let us know!)

In the longer term the speculative question is the light field stuff...

None of the above should detract from the value of a set of MPs however!!

Mike

 

[David Collard]

Kolkata..is that the same as Calcutta?

If you're satisfied with RPP's, why spend the money on Master Primes, Ultraprimes?
You will be buying at the top of the market.
Those new Leica sound like a better investment, even with a one year wait.
Also, if everything goes "3D" (yuck), then one set of an expensive lens set is again a half-investment.

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Lens coverage chart here: http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html
Note that none of the existing cine lens series (except Zeiss Compact Primes which are rehoused still lenses) will cover the Dragon FF sensor. If that is important to you.

 

[marco braun]

Hi Harcharan,
I have UltraPrimes 12mm - 100mm they all cover 5k . I am very sure 6k will be easy with them .

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

cooke S4/S5 dont cover 5k FF on the wide end,
but nobody cares. They are rented out almost every day.
Most people shoot 4K or 5k 2:1 from my clients.
i dont think that the lens makret will go down. i guess the opposite will happen.
it will get more expensive.
there will be/are so many PL mount cameras around and the need of high quality glas increased the last years.
the good thing about glas is you can rent it out to red, epic, alexa, sony, canon etc. jobs.
and in my experience normal budgetee projects dont use uniqu, elite, rpp, panchro lenses that often.

right now in my experience its like this.
ultra 25%, angenieux zooms 15%, masters 25%, cooke S4/S5 25%, others 10%

 

[PatrickFaith]

Lens coverage chart here: http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html
Note that none of the existing cine lens series (except Zeiss Compact Primes which are rehoused still lenses) will cover the Dragon FF sensor. If that is important to you.

Very cool chart, I didn't realize the dragon sensor was "full frame". Full frame (i.e. is more like a camera lens, where it's not a natural 2:1), begs the question in that you either have to crop most of the lens image for 2:1, or you use anamorphic's to compress space in the horizontal. Thus how I'm looking at this, if dragon will be a full frame sensor, then for high end lenses you want a anamorphic, thus the investment in master primes and s5 wouldn't be so hot. This right ?

 

[Ryan De Franco]

On the lower end side of things... for all of us reading this for whom S4s are a lucky rental... it's a great time to buy undervalued PL and especially still glass. Values for older PL lenses grew exponentially after the Red One brought the PL standard down to 'video' projects.

With all the explosion of PL cameras and new media, old Russian, German, English glass is going to become ever more sought after and valuable. There are only so many in the world, you can't buy new superspeeds, new speed panchros, new Contax Zeiss, new AI Nikkor... every chunk of the price spectrum is going to rise. My guess would be especially in India as a moviegoing public begins to expect content in the home.

That is, until electronic lenses become a new standard for filmmaking. Not anytime soon, certainly, even if a game changer comes along. By then my Contax and everyone else's S4s and Masters will have paid for themselves.

 

[Nick Morrison]

On the lower end side of things... for all of us reading this for whom S4s are a lucky rental... it's a great time to buy undervalued PL and especially still glass. Values for older PL lenses grew exponentially after the Red One brought the PL standard down to 'video' projects.

With all the explosion of PL cameras and new media, old Russian, German, English glass is going to become ever more sought after and valuable. There are only so many in the world, you can't buy new superspeeds, new speed panchros, new Contax Zeiss, new AI Nikkor... every chunk of the price spectrum is going to rise. My guess would be especially in India as a moviegoing public begins to expect content in the home.

That is, until electronic lenses become a new standard for filmmaking. Not anytime soon, certainly, even if a game changer comes along. By then my Contax and everyone else's S4s and Masters will have paid for themselves.

I pretty much agree with everything Ryan says.

 

[Ryan Lalonde]

Very cool chart, I didn't realize the dragon sensor was "full frame". Full frame (i.e. is more like a camera lens, where it's not a natural 2:1), begs the question in that you either have to crop most of the lens image for 2:1, or you use anamorphic's to compress space in the horizontal. Thus how I'm looking at this, if dragon will be a full frame sensor, then for high end lenses you want a anamorphic, thus the investment in master primes and s5 wouldn't be so hot. This right ?

I don't think it's ever been confirmed as full frame....

 

[Nick Morrison]

I don't think it's ever been confirmed as full frame....

No it hasn't. But as RED has openly discussed a 645 sensor, then clearly going bigger is on their mind. So it's not out of the question. Having a full frame sensor that would allow you to choose if you wanted the shallow depth of field of a 5D, or the standard workflow of Super 35 (depending on what setting you chose), would be spellbinding.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Investing in good PL lenses is smart if you have jobs for them.

While Red brought an unforeseen dynamic into a considerable small market they don't have the power, and even more importantly the will to change everything. There are many reasons why the S35 PL standard exists, historical but also practical.

It is in Red's own interest to have a strong leg in this market that is doubtless still lead by Arri, Sony and others. So they won't step aside and say: "the future is FF and we abandon S-35". While Red's sensors may become bigger in the future to cover the needs of still photographers, there will be always an option for S-35 glass and PL mount. IMHO, PL lenses will be THE standard for cinematography in the next 3 decades.

The reasons are obvious:

1. The technology and know-how is already there.

2. They are future proved. Good S-35 lenses resolve 4K and beyond.

3. Any bigger format will create even bigger lenses. Especially zooms covering FF will be a problem when size, weight and cost matter.

4. The DOF decreases even more compared to S-35. FF wide-open is a focus nightmare. Hardcore shallow depth of field is not a goal for the majority of filmmakers. With S3D the opposite is the case.

----

Personally I would not invest into MPs, Red's ProPrimes are in the same ball-park, albeit a bit slower and much, much cheaper. But DP's love MPs and if rental is one's business, why not? They hold value tremendously.


Hans

 

[Harcharan Singh]

Hi ,
Thanks for your replies....we have decided to wait till NAB 2012 in April ...
Harcharan

 

[Björn Benckert]

Though the sensor might have higher resolution, this doesn't mean its necessarily going to be larger.

Red defines more photosites on a per square mm than others would--in effect claiming the sensor is capable of higher resolution. It certainly is, but 5K is pushing the MX sensor, whereas a Dragon upgrade could be the same size but more capable. Perhaps Red has figured out a better way to extract pixels from their sensor's recipe.

In contrast, the 'other' camera over-samples heavily to get its 1080 output. What many of us hope to see out of Dragon is not a resolution space race, but more oversampling--for better color stability, underexposure performance and other subtle gains.

Knowing Red, they will pull off both in one move. But I highly doubt we will see an upgrade that makes the pantheon of cinema lenses unusable. That would be madness. The 5K frame difference on the Epic is because Red used firmware to extract more information from the same sensor . With Dragon, Red is giving us a whole new beast.

So you do not think they will give us a "70mm camera"? I Full sensor and then 70mm is the path, they been stating that's the ease quite early on.

 

[Scott Crawley]

...That is, until electronic lenses become a new standard for filmmaking. Not anytime soon, certainly, even if a game changer comes along.

It will be interesting to see if that holds up. Wth all of the smart mounts Red is selling I'm not sure I believe that new electronic lenses are so far off. That's not to say that I expect them to de-throne MP's in a hurry, but big changes are imminent.

As I think I eluded to before if you have a reasonable plan to return your investment MP's are still a safe near term investment.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Hi ,
Thanks for your replies....we have decided to wait till NAB 2012 in April ...
Harcharan

that's a smart move, I think - there's a RED storm rising, and I believe RED is going to unleash it with a fury....all this barely contained silence from Jim Jannard is about to be uncorked, I think - and I definitely don't think that RED minds re-inventing standards - in fact, they love it....