Introducing the Nikon Zr

[Bastien Tribalat]

It seems that this 12 bit variant of Redcode might just be a repackaged N-Raw file ? (which would explain how people can have their N-Raw appear as Redcode in RedCine just by changing the .nev into .r3d and why in its highest quality setting, N-RAW has datarates similar to this "new" Redcode)

 

[scorsesefan]

It seems that this 12 bit variant of Redcode might just be a repackaged N-Raw file ? (which would explain how people can have their N-Raw appear as Redcode in RedCine just by changing the .nev into .r3d and why in its highest quality setting, N-RAW has datarates similar to this "new" Redcode)

That’s disappointing.

 

[Afshin]

Everybody wanted IPP2, and now its available. Otherwise NRAW codec, which is intoPIX's TicoRAW, is more efficient, hence the fanless cooling. But I wonder, if R3D NE is truly NRAW, why lower quality bitrate is not available. Lower bitrate is only available in NRAW "normal" mode.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Everybody wanted IPP2, and now its available. Otherwise NRAW codec, which is intoPIX's TicoRAW, is more efficient, hence the fanless cooling. But I wonder, if R3D NE is truly NRAW, why lower quality bitrate is not available. Lower bitrate is only available in NRAW "normal" mode.
View attachment 3837743

Marketing ?
All-in-all that doesn't change the fact that a $2200-ish (don't quote me on that XD) can give you access to the real IPP2 Pipeline in post, it's just that all the marketing blurb around the inclusion of the RED Tech INTO the camera feels a bit "deceptive" IF it's "just" a repackaged N-Raw file. (and THAT doesn't change the fact that the camera seems to produce beautiful images nonetheless)

 

[Afshin]

Marketing ?
All-in-all that doesn't change the fact that a $2200-ish (don't quote me on that XD) can give you access to the real IPP2 Pipeline in post, it's just that all the marketing blurb around the inclusion of the RED Tech INTO the camera feels a bit "deceptive" IF it's "just" a repackaged N-Raw file. (and THAT doesn't change the fact that the camera seems to produce beautiful images nonetheless)

I'm not sure how a lower bitrate R3D NE would change the marketing message. It would be even a positive point in spec list. Like 6k24p at NRAW Normal is just 780mbs. And I don't know how its deceptive if it solves the user's problem. Why should I care, as the user, what's underneath the file, if it lets me match color to other RED cameras? In still photography, we've been using raw formats for years, that are actually TIFF, with proprietary metadata on top of that.
Nikon is not known as a company that explains why they do what they do, tho. For example here we have two raw 4k modes, one is 4032 pixels wide, which is perfect 1.5x crop and makes sense, and the another is 3984 pixels wide. Probably one is using digital downsampling, instead of pixel binning. But who knows.

 

[keylight]

It seems that this 12 bit variant of Redcode might just be a repackaged N-Raw file ? (which would explain how people can have their N-Raw appear as Redcode in RedCine just by changing the .nev into .r3d and why in its highest quality setting, N-RAW has datarates similar to this "new" Redcode)

Yep, it's 100% just N-raw. Red added n-raw to cine x pro and their SDK, which let you process n-raw with IPP2.
I get the marketing behind calling it R3D, but it's disapointinng it doesn't have the same "normal/ high" options as n-raw. It's also disapointing that Log3G10 isn't availble with other codecs. They're already profiled the sensors, done the colour work, they have the log profile already in camera. Just let us have the colour/ dynamic range with smaller file sizes. It's one of the things, along with open gate holding me back from getting this camera.


Canon, Sony, Pansonic, Fuji don't have abitrary limitations on their log profiles.

 

[Ruben Stuveling]

Yep, it's 100% just N-raw. Red added n-raw to cine x pro and their SDK, which let you process n-raw with IPP2.
I get the marketing behind calling it R3D, but it's disapointinng it doesn't have the same "normal/ high" options as n-raw. It's also disapointing that Log3G10 isn't availble with other codecs. They're already profiled the sensors, done the colour work, they have the log profile already in camera. Just let us have the colour/ dynamic range with smaller file sizes. It's one of the things, along with open gate holding me back from getting this camera.


Canon, Sony, Pansonic, Fuji don't have abitrary limitations on their log profiles.

I'm not defending Nikon, but IPP2 does have some intelligence build in to, for example, rebuild clipped highlights. Maybe the camera itself doesn't have the horsepower or cooling capacity to do that in real time. Now you could disable those functions to get IPP2 working, but is this really different from recording N-Log at that point?

 

[scorsesefan]

For me as a documentarian the decider of whether or not I cancel my pre-order will be if Nikon introduces different quality steps for R3D NE. As of now it's way too data intensive.

 

[Afshin]

At first it was like
"micro HDMI? Its not a cine camera"

Then it became
"Why card slot at the bottom? Its not cine camera"

Then
"Its not RED enough" to " Why it isn't copy of a Sony?"

Then
"Why this cine camera doesn't have a 422 h.265 codec?"

Then
"Ok, its cine camera, but raw files are huuuuge!"

I think we're experiencing a paradigm shift and people don't know how to react. Even Philip Bloom complains about file sizes. Its a valid concern, but an experienced filmmaker (I was one of his first weblog readers) shouldn't complain about the size of R3D. The main issue is something else: If a $2k camera is this capable, what a beast its $4k big brother will be? And then what? They're more concerned about too many people getting access to this capabilities, rather than their personal decision to buy it or not. In a world with thousands of new filmmakers producing high quality content, it will be more challenging to differentiate.

 

[scorsesefan]

Well, I'm an experienced filmmaker (20 + years) and in documentary file size is an issue. It may not be an issue when shooting narrative, commercials or music videos, but for long form docs it is. I own a Komodo and one of the things that make it appealing is the ability to choose flavors of R3D. Red, Blackmagic and Canon all have the ability to choose flavors of RAW with different compression settings. Nikon is pushing the ZR as an FX3 competitor and the latter is standard in the documentary world. If Nikon wants documentarians to adopt this camera it would be wise to include different compression options for R3D NE...

 

[Afshin]

Nikon is pushing the ZR as an FX3 competitor and the latter is standard in the documentary world.

They're not. They don't even market it as a still camera, despite ZR being a potent still body with film looks developed by RED that their still oriented Zf lacks. ZR vs FX3 is a narrative running by mostly-Sony-user youtubers. Nikon and RED goal, as far as I understand from their messaging, is to give both Nikon shooters and RED shooters something that both hadn't before.

 

[M Harvey]

I love the idea of this as an ultra portable Red B-cam with some of the conveniences of the Sony cameras, such as strong autofocus performance (if that bears out) and easy sound recording via accessory interface. I could see it going on a gimbal (with easier balance and potentially no need for focus motors) or living unattended as a side angle for an interview.

As to the question of whether it’s “true” r3d and the lack of compression levels—would be better it did, but so long as the color really does match, I think I’d probably be ok with it.

There’s also some appeal to me as a “back door” to full frame r3d recording (I own Komodo X, so full frame cameras are mostly rental items for me). I see that the 4k s35 crop has slightly odd pixel dimensions, but I’d hope it’s a good match for circumstances where I use s35 glass.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

At first it was like
"micro HDMI? Its not a cine camera"

Then it became
"Why card slot at the bottom? Its not cine camera"

Then
"Its not RED enough" to " Why it isn't copy of a Sony?"

Then
"Why this cine camera doesn't have a 422 h.265 codec?"

Then
"Ok, its cine camera, but raw files are huuuuge!"

I think we're experiencing a paradigm shift and people don't know how to react. Even Philip Bloom complains about file sizes. Its a valid concern, but an experienced filmmaker (I was one of his first weblog readers) shouldn't complain about the size of R3D. The main issue is something else: If a $2k camera is this capable, what a beast its $4k big brother will be? And then what? They're more concerned about too many people getting access to this capabilities, rather than their personal decision to buy it or not. In a world with thousands of new filmmakers producing high quality content, it will be more challenging to differentiate.

I think the file size being too big is a valid problem BECAUSE of the price of the camera. I see the same thing with most buyers of BM Pocket cameras : "how yeah cinema camera of cheap blablabla" quickly followed buy "oh no I cant' afford the storage to keep my footage or to upgrade my computer to be able to handle it" (I'm obvisouly exagerating to make a point )

 

[Afshin]

I think the file size being too big is a valid problem BECAUSE of the price of the camera. I see the same thing with most buyers of BM Pocket cameras : "how yeah cinema camera of cheap blablabla" quickly followed buy "oh no I cant' afford the storage to keep my footage or to upgrade my computer to be able to handle it" (I'm obvisouly exagerating to make a point )

Well that expands into other aspect of the inconveniences. I've seen people complaining about the bulk and weight of V mount batteries, after realizing still camera batteries is not made for video production.

 

[Afshin]

BTW, I just found this Japanese video. Apparently R3D NE is not just a repacked NRAW. The noise difference between the two is significant. Maybe due to different base ISO.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think the file size being too big is a valid problem BECAUSE of the price of the camera. I see the same thing with most buyers of BM Pocket cameras : "how yeah cinema camera of cheap blablabla" quickly followed buy "oh no I cant' afford the storage to keep my footage or to upgrade my computer to be able to handle it" (I'm obvisouly exagerating to make a point )

N-RAW isn't hugely different than REDCODE, and I'd worry much less about the codec itself vs. the processing that occurs prior to compression. File sizes are larger due to the lower processing ability vs more expensive camera systems. Higher compression requires more intensive compute so we're going to see larger file sizes here. Unless you want them to start tossing more data and introduce more artifacts and loss of detail.

All things considered, I'm liking this little camera. My primary cams these days are the Z9 and Komodo X, I can see where this would be super handy to add to the kit. I almost picked up a Z6III a couple times now as having a smaller body would really be handy. And this brings a variant of that more tuned with the RED ecosystem.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

N-RAW isn't hugely different than REDCODE, and I'd worry much less about the codec itself vs. the processing that occurs prior to compression. File sizes are larger due to the lower processing ability vs more expensive camera systems. Higher compression requires more intensive compute so we're going to see larger file sizes here. Unless you want them to start tossing more data and introduce more artifacts and loss of detail.

All things considered, I'm liking this little camera. My primary cams these days are the Z9 and Komodo X, I can see where this would be super handy to add to the kit. I almost picked up a Z6III a couple times now as having a smaller body would really be handy. And this brings a variant of that more tuned with the RED ecosystem.

Yeah I find the camera very attractive despite all the cons it has.

The fact that the R3D NE thing might be a repackaged N-RAW doesn't bother me as a potential user, it's just on a marketing standpoint that I find it a bit dodgy. And what pisses me off also is all the people on forums, comment sections and all the YouTubers that were bashing RED for the MiniMag thing but applaude the R3D NE in the Zr even if on paper it might just be the same level of marketing BS.

BTW, I just found this Japanese video. Apparently R3D NE is not just a repacked NRAW. The noise difference between the two is significant. Maybe due to different base ISO.

My guess is the base ISO and the fact that it uses different decoding pipelines. (that the thing : IF NE is repackaged N-RAW, it's "just" a metadata thing to indicate which SDK to use in post... I'm saying that like it's an easy thing to do like a typical Internet A-Hole haha but you get the point)
All in all, if it works, it works.

 

[Alex Zeder]

They might be different in martketing slang, but they are also different in data rates:

[R3D NE / N-RAW High quality]

6048 x 3402 :
59.94p (3780 Mbps), 50p (3160 Mbps), 29.97p (1900 Mbps), 25p (1590 Mbps), 23.97p (1520 Mbps)

[N-RAW Normal]

6048 x 3402 :
59.94p (1920 Mbps), 50p (1610 Mbps), 29.97p (970 Mbps), 25p (810 Mbps), 23.97p (780 Mbps)

Now if "R3D NE == N-RAW High", I don't care what they name it as long as I get the 3780 Mbps compressed RAW quality out of it. If they are indeed equal from quality stand point, then N-RAW Normal is just another name for R3D MQ.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I shoot documentaries with the Komodo-X and I'm really happy to have a Zr mounted on the gimbal (with it's bright huge screen) rather than a Sony A7s3. So file size ins't a deal breaker for me.


Thanks Nikon/RED

PS: I see a bit more compression noise/artefact in the R3D NE than in the R3D from the Raptor footage.

 

[scorsesefan]

I shoot documentaries with the Komodo-X and I'm really happy to have a Zr mounted on the gimbal (with it's bright huge screen) rather than a Sony A7s3. So file size ins't a deal breaker for me.


Thanks Nikon/RED

PS: I see a bit more compression noise/artefact in the R3D NE than in the R3D from the Raptor footage.

Are you able to match the Sony to your Red well?