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Improving the Camera: The Image

Hrvoje Simic

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With a new path around the Sun...it's cool time for new things.

Ten years ago, when DVXUser was one of the most, if not The most comprehensive, versatile and helpful global meeting point for camera people of various segments, a new meeting place was created by Jarred.

A place whose center point was one new imaging device and the philosophy behind it. It was still in an early phase. While many were playing safe and sticking to the known, there was a smaller bunch of creative people, who had dug up the project online from the very start, seen the possibilities and had faith to follow. To those who had seen many aspects of its early phase it was apparent that the project showed true passion, dedication, real vision and strong desire for improvement of our domain, despite the challenges. From those times some of us got a little piece of machined titanium sitting on the shelf, with zero practical purpose but priceless nevertheless because of what it represents.

In those ten years a lot has happened in our domain, drastic shifts in various aspects, most significant of which was the achieved level of imaging quality, not only possible but actually accessible to many.

In all those years, with all the changes, one thing has remained.
The pursuit of improvement. New tools, new improvements of existing ones.



...



The success in assimilation of the matter presented in this thread is greatly affected by these three factors:

1) The property of an open mind
2) Integrative power of the mind
3) The absence of preconceptions and prejudice

If these three factors are a subjective challenge I propose avoiding this thread and any guesswork on what it's about. :)

Self-valorization and fluff will not be present here. Care has been taken to condense the information.


...



The Project


Over the years, through the interdisciplinary nature of my work I have had access, opportunities and necessities to work with and utilize various tools, equipment, workflows. As circumstances and scope of understanding at the time allowed, I had done various research and investigation of my own, seeking improvements in different aspects of motion imaging. Developing some solutions for myself, some for my colleagues, some for the community as well.

Most recent one targeted camera's imagery.

About a year and a half ago I embarked on a journey. It was a tough journey, filled with ups and downs, @#!%#& and "Heureka" moments, made between two jobs, on set and in post and much of it in unchartered territory.
The thing which initiated the deeper dive into the unknown was solving that "Sony look". Additionally made more difficult by the need of improving results from compact cameras with capable sensors but poor codec and colour science. We had drama in post with those almost every time. As they became more and more used in projects I got fed up with the circus which entered the grading suite and paraded across the scopes and the re-occurring need for taming the rampant zoo. What could be done to solve that...

It took about 6 months of work to find out.
As the circumstances and free time allowed...and the goal was finally met. "Sony look" issue is now gone.
With selected motion imaging-capable cameras, if developed solutions are adequately applied to their material. Creatives using some of those cameras on doing post work on material coming from them can find the solution in my signature.

During the whole process of research I had to develop custom analysis methodology because all typically used were insufficient, I had to optimize some tools for the purpose and develop some new ones, plus design and improve image response optimization methodology. That alone took over a year, as the time and stamina between two jobs allowed.

It would have been foolish stopping there.


:)





EDIT
30.1.2017.


Dragon response is optimized for monitoring and post.
Significant improvements across the signal range.

More info about the project on page 8.

Primers for Dragon are ready and can be acquired at this page:

http://omeneo.com/primers/



EDIT
20.3.2017.



Primers EQX for Helium are ready and Primers EQX for Dragon are updated.
 
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  • #2
EDIT

23.11.2017


Dragon material.

Primers EQX.
Generation 3



Directly from Resolve. No color modifications.
In RAW set ISO, temperature and tint.




1

k96uja.jpg


2

2d8p9c0.jpg


3

54zsig.jpg


4

90w1ep.jpg


5

16m9ls5.jpg









What you get with standard IPP2 LUTS:





1

vqjgw5.jpg


2

2mhh6s9.jpg


3

epeyht.jpg


4

2d29dg8.jpg


5

24x15zm.jpg









Shown are richer versions, there is more conservative version (01 Base) in the set for more grading range.


Side by side comparisons and more samples on:



http://omeneo.com/primers/red/





20r1mqo.jpg



huha8y.jpg



v3ephs.jpg



2m51943.jpg



2506umh.jpg






Base color science + standard LUTs
Same ISO, temperature and tint.




2zg66b6.jpg



2v0flg6.jpg



rv8y04.jpg



2ymysfo.jpg



2882lgm.jpg








More info on the project:

http://omeneo.com/primers/

http://omeneo.com/primers/red/
 
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Hrvoje and Wayne are similar in that I have no idea what they are saying sometimes... but that just adds to the color of this place called Reduser.
 
Hrvoje and Wayne are similar in that I have no idea what they are saying sometimes... but that just adds to the color of this place called Reduser.

The short, Hrvoje has created a 3D LUT (likely based around RWGRGB/Log310 and perhaps more) that provides a subjectively pleasing result that is more "optimized".

Many others have done this as well :)
 
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The short, Hrvoje has created a 3D LUT (likely based around RWGRGB/Log310 and perhaps more) that provides a subjectively pleasing result that is more "optimized".

Many others have done this as well :)

Phil...there are three factors in the start of the thread which may be useful.
 
Phil...there are three factors in the start of the thread which may be useful.

Camera signal optimization doesn't bode well with "subjective". ;)

It does and it doesn't. All depends on what you are aiming towards.
 
The thing which initiated the deeper dive into the unknown was solving that "Sony look". Additionally made more difficult by the need of improving results from compact cameras with capable sensors but poor codec and colour science.
Which specific Sony camera? I don't see anything consistent from the F3 to the F65 -- they're all over the place in terms of look. You're trying to match which specific camera with which other specific camera?

All this stuff can be done -- it's not that hard as long as the material is reasonably well-exposed and the cameras hit a minimum level of quality. I wouldn't expect a $500 Sony handycam to match an F55, but I bet a good colorist could get an F5 and an F55 reasonably close. It does help to use calibration charts like the DSC's.
 
Added a few examples in the start of the thread.


Which specific Sony camera? I don't see anything consistent from the F3 to the F65 -- they're all over the place in terms of look. You're trying to match which specific camera with which other specific camera?

Every one which I can properly test and thoroughly analyse it's signal.

If signal deviations were consistent I could just apply the solution on all. They are not so each camera requires specific work. A lot of work. Signal varies depending on camera's sensor, data processing and signal mapping.

Matching is neither the goal nor the reference nor the starting point. When signal is "ironed" to a possible extent, easier camera matching is one of the outcomes. WB, exposure, contrast distribution and other compensations are still required for the images to fully "sink in" but that is in the hands of a colorist, the only place where it makes sense to be.


I wouldn't expect a $500 Sony handycam to match an F55, but I bet a good colorist could get an F5 and an F55 reasonably close. It does help to use calibration charts like the DSC's.

The extent of matching is always dependent on image quantization properties and recording format dictates the range, precision, artefact tendency and overall image impression. For example, XAVC cannot give "thicker" blacks as Prores, because h.264 throws out data from blacks, plus has compression affected texture, so you can match the image coloristically and see exact scopes, but it won't "feel" exactly the same. But again, this is not designed to match cameras, I've already written on Reduser why seeking or chasing a one-click solution for that is an exercise in futility. You get to match cameras, you just don't have to jump through hoops to do it.

I use charts I developed for this purpose.
All standard charts were insufficient.
 
The success in assimilation of the matter presented in this thread is greatly affected by these three factors:

1) The property of an open mind
2) Integrative power of the mind
3) The absence of preconceptions and prejudice

If these three factors are a subjective challenge I propose avoiding this thread and any guesswork on what it's about. :)

Self-valorization and fluff will not be present here. Care has been taken to condense the information

Good work Hrvoje. As I thought reading this, you were implying you created a transformation method, likely with a lut.

Hrvoje, you violate these three points often, and filled out this condensed version with elitest language fluff instead of making it ten times easier to read in less than a quarter the space. You are one of the very few handful of people that come along.and wreck my personal threads a lot of the time, until I feel like my hair is comming out. Don't matter how clear, concise and simple I make it. I usually politely try to reason, because I'm one of the few people I've met here that:
.1) The property of an open mind
2) Integrative power of the mind
3) The absence of preconceptions and prejudice
People don't even know what these mean, they are fairly far reaching, into the abstract even.

Have fun on this one, I'm actually one of your supporters, and would like to see you succeed, because it is my nature. :)

Only reading for when Wayne posts to say he thought of whatever this idea is years ago ;)

Anybody that knows about image characteristics and luts should have thought about this, I've even being adjusting levels on my DVD players for years and my hifi equaliser when I was in primary school. It is why they used to make mechanical filters to color balance Sony handy cams, and why cinematographers condition their images on set with lighting and filters, and software comes with looks. If it is a sudden revelation.

Hrvoje and Wayne are similar in that I have no idea what they are saying sometimes... but that just adds to the color of this place called Reduser.

Andy, if somebody can easily understand that (excluding elitests and spiritual beings, like God) or not understand me, they need to get an examination. I lay out simply, on practicably simple enough language and sentences instead of words that only Jeff would understand. Why I always bother to read Marc's stuff, and others, is to learn, to be more.

Agreement is the weak point of discussion, you have to develop something worth agreeing on in the first place.

Have a good night guys. Keep up.the good work Hrvoje. I leave you to your gloriouse thread, and hopefully will return sometime to help (though frankily this is not very complex to contribute much past what you could do, or anything psst what Marc could help you with). My research into dynamic filter idea is probably what you need to condition the image before recording.
 
Hrvoje, you violate these three points often, and filled out this condensed version with elitest language fluff instead of making it ten times easier to read in less than a quarter the space. You are one of the very few handful of people that come along.and wreck my personal threads a lot of the time, until I feel like my hair is comming out. Don't matter how clear, concise and simple I make it.

You are way off. :)

I love your creative mind, desire for improvement and will to share your thoughts and ideas with community. Sometimes it seems that it goes a bit overboard with expectations and few assumptions here and there, but that tends to go with the package of a progressive mind. Some don't do anything and don't have these challenges, and some wonder, dig and explore, hitting bumps on the way. I can just share my experience to help. Nothing I write is meant to get your Spirit down. I understand it might have seemed the way you interpreted but English is not my native language and word interpretation and phrasing differs between languages and cultures in context and tone and it takes time to develop an adequate transform. I'm not working just on optimizing cameras. :)

Anyway, don't let some of the comments put you down, guys mean well. Think of these as just friendly pokes and this forum as the interactive pool of consciousness balancing itself through feedback of various perspectives. We are all on the same side, it just takes joint work to properly pass and assimilate the feedback.

Best vibes sent to the creative mind in the land down under. Cheers, man.
 
Hrvoje, how are the comparison images processed with? IPP2 or the old stuff?


First image > previous color science, second image > IPP2 further optimized based on sensor analysis.
 
Fascinated by this discussion. Any love for FS700 S-Log 2 owners, Hrvoje?
 
I like the results of your color pallet Hrvoje, it's a pleasing look.

If you haven't already, I would recommend stress-testing the LUTs on some saturated ramps & gradients, such as this free image we've created:
http://truecolor.us/downloads/lut-stress-test-image/

Often times LUTs can have banding and other artifacts hidden inside, and they might not show up on every shot. When building (or using) LUTs, it's a good idea to thoroughly check them beforehand.

Here's more information on the subject:
http://truecolor.us/news/not-all-luts-are-created-equal/
 
20rl0lw.jpg



aw4490.jpg









2guhco3.jpg



2rz9spc.jpg




...
 
I like the results of your color pallet Hrvoje, it's a pleasing look.

If you haven't already, I would recommend stress-testing the LUTs on some saturated ramps & gradients, such as this free image we've created:
http://truecolor.us/downloads/lut-stress-test-image/
/[/URL]

John, thanks for posting this. not my favorite one, I've been using various test images over the years for display calibration and/or LUT stress tests but always good to have one more to check on ! but especially for banding there's better ones though, IMO


Hrvoje, can u post the LUT and/or solution here or is this still work in progress ? what exactly is the implementation ? is it a LUT ? is this paid or free... ?

in short: WHAT EXACTLY IS THE DEAL IN PLAIN ENGLISH ?!? ;-)))
 
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