I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

[Tom Lowe]

Well, it's weird, because since EPIC came out, and before the smaller 6k pixels of Dragon were announced , I can't recall a single Epic user posting:

"5k just isn't enough for my super 35 sensor!! This MX is CRAP! I want and need 6k NOW!"

I have been pushing for 6K since at least 2008, in fact. I have been shooting 5.6K RAW since 2008, when I started shooting TL on the Canon 5D Mark 2, so 5.6K is a baseline resolution for me. If we are talking about Bayer-pattern cameras for a clean 4K finish, you need AT LEAST 5K, just mathematically speaking, and you need 6K if you're shooting in low light. That has been my stated opinion here for something like four years.

I recently finished a film at 4K, and I can tell you, I could have definitely used a 6K camera!!!! That is why I am trying to drive home this point.. you might not think you need 6K now, but wait till you actually try to post a film at a clean 4K. Then you will be thanking the heavens for 6K.

In terms of Epic and Dragon, Jim is specifically and explicitly building this camera/sensor combination for 4K finishes. So if people don't care about 4K finishes, don't buy the Epic with the Dragon... it won't be the camera for you. But don't try to bash the camera and sensor, because some of us really, really need it. All of my upcoming projects rely on Dragon.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

$300 a day for epics... I charge less than that and I come with my camera... I would welcome any "visit" from unwelcome guests.

You will never break even on your investment. You are losing money at that rate. No question. You might not see it, but it's only because you are not doing your math in a realistic way.

Ask a someone who has been in the business longer or advice. I guarantee they will agree.

Let me guess - you have another day job and this is a hobby - sorry, "passion" - for you.

As for your welcoming that visit , that's very macho-cowboy of you, but I doubt you'd really welcome that visit. I also doubt that Oklahoma is anything like NYC L.A. or Montreal when it comes to these things.

 

[Nick Morrison]

To summarize your comment: "Red is brilliant so let's not even try to help them. Let's wait till they're done with the sensor (and its' too late) to offer any comments or suggestions" Others say basically "If you don't like it just don't buy it." I would expect more from someone whom I felt had my back, and I feel we owe Jim more too.

Dude I agree with you - its great to give RED feedback. And I'm not one to assume RED/JIM don't have their flaws. You could certainly argue that Jim's competitiveness has earned him more than his share of detractors/enemies.

However, you are making wild accusations about a piece of tech that wont be out for a year. You don't even know what the ISO performance is, and yet you are already criticizing it. And you wrote your post in a way that was designed to call attention to itself and be inflammatory. You were trying to get attention, and you did!

My point is: Red is already on their back heels. The Alex is all over the place. Every article I read raves about its low-light. RED KNOWS. They would be committing suicide if the ISO performance doesn't improve. To me, it's such a given that the low-light performance will be much better that I'm not even worried about it.

And 6k? Well, are we really even surprised? 4K was great because you could oversample out some amazing 1080p deliverables. As we enter an age where 4K is now a deliverable in and of itself, it makes sense that RED is going 6K...so you can oversample out some incredibly sharp 4K renders.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, you're just a whining ingrate, with no vision. You belong in the 20th century at best.
If you don't have at least 3 years to post every project, you just have no passion.
You may even be a f$%ing professional.
What's that? Other people besides yourself are involved in handling files onset and in post? You have to collaborate?
You're clearly not an artist. You just don't deserve that camera.

You know Mark I try. I asked the record label for a 2 year extension on post - but they're such visionless suits they said no.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff I have worked on post on countless Red projects. I am a beta tester on countless post tools.

Sure Rob, I know that you do. Many of us here work on RED-related projects every day, I do. I beta test quite a bit of software too, as do many others on these forums and in this discussion.

You talk about a world, again, filled with people who "should" be a certain way. You also have an apparently less proactive and respectful approach toward you clients than I do. They are doing their best. They are not techs. I do not just throw my hands up angrily and say "whatever" when they ask for something I consider ill-advised. I make a lot of friends that way in the long run, and build trust.

I was trying to illicit constructive discussion and voice my opinion.

Hmmm... Not sure what gave you that idea, perhaps my "I don't care, I'll take their money either way." comment lead you to that conclusion. I can see where it could be interpreted that way. That's not the case though, my dealings with clients is very proactive and nothing but respectful. The point was, there are times when the client wants it a certain way, wants me to use specific equipment, etc.. Regardless of what advice I may offer or how proactive I can be. I still take them and guide them to the best of my ability. I have no problems shooting an Alexa if the client requests such a thing. If the client wants to finish 1080p, even after my consultation, so be it. Some clients don't seek advice and don't react well if it's offered.

That said, I will say that most of my clients are technical in nature. I primarily serve the high-end corporate client. Companies in various industries like software development, manufacturing, aerospace, resorts and entertainment. Most of them like gadgets and new technology. Many of them create these things. 4K acquisition is usually an easy sell, most of my corporate projects these days go beyond just shooting video. For iOS and Android apps and content to satisfy the latest mobile screens, especially the latest tablets, 1080p is not enough. We know it, the client knows it and they know their tech-savvy customers know it.

Well, it's weird, because since EPIC came out, and before the smaller 6k pixels of Dragon were announced , I can't recall a single Epic user posting:

"5k just isn't enough for my super 35 sensor!! This MX is CRAP! I want and need 6k NOW!"

If they had said that, they'd have been howled at for being a whining ingrate!!!

..Some of us just want more and can find a way to use more. We have clients who want more. Ideas of how we can use more if it were there. If RED makes it, we'll find a way to put it to use.

RED makes cameras, which are tools that can be used in so many ways. Not everyone here shoots the same type of projects, works on the same type of productions, etc.. In my current world with the majority of the clients I have, there's not enough resolution. If RED were to make the EPIC-617 panoramic 28K camera available tomorrow, I would order it the first second I could. Can you imagine what can be done with resolution like that? Think of corporate lobby spaces, luxury auto showrooms, upscale resorts, casinos, hotels, etc.. Places where we could install 23-foot long seamless video walls at 100dpi, where people could walk within 6 to 8 feet of them and not be conscious of pixelated detail... That's just one little use for a camera like that.

IMO, there's no such thing as too much resolution. It's an inevitable process where we'll eventually progress to the point where pixels are indistinguishable at any finish and presentation size. Perhaps even eliminating the concept of "pixels" altogether at some point in the future.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I recently finished a film at 4K, and I can tell you, I could have definitely used a 6K camera!!!! That is why I am trying to drive home this point.. you might not think you need 6K now, but wait till you actually try to post a film at a clean 4K. Then you will be thanking the heavens for 6K.

I'll be thanking you, Tom, for sure, if in the life of the Dragon sensor, I'm shooting even 5 percent of my features, TVCs, etc for a 4k master.

But wait... I've seen 4k screened at Red, shot at 4k on a Red One, and it looked crazy sharp. Everyone said so.

Nah. Couldn't have been.

 

[Mark Pugh]

As David Mullen said, it's about balance.
It's not just about resolution.
Red should be aiming to make the best sensor in all parameters. I'm sure they are.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

What we really wanted was very good performance at extreme high ISOs. It's not every shoot that needs this, but it does open up possibilities that would have been expensive or impossible to do without it. (I'm NOT advocating doing away with lights, just using lower amp heads in tough locations where power and the ability to disturb local residents are at a premium.)

We also wanted a bigger field of view. Give us full frame. That's cool, and useful.

Give us even more precise color fidelity. There is no end to how good color rendition can be. More of that is always better.

Instead the main touted feature is even higher pixel density, and "6K".

6K is a problem. Its' not a good thing. 5K already nearly chokes most fo our workstations here, and we never, EVER say "Gee I wish this was higher resolution" Computer tech is advancing slowly these days. It's not just our computers, but the computers of all the people we hand in footage to that would have to be upgraded. My head hurst just thinking about it. If anything we would prefer slightly FEWER pixels per square inch of field of view, not more. Or just keep it the same.

Most camera makers have understood that the "megapixel race" has become silly. In my personal opinion, at the current 5K, Red should too.

I think proof is that there is very little excitement over Dragon. Epic solved a real problems ("Gee, I love my Red, but I wish it were lighter and started up faster, and that 3K and 2K slomo is cool, I wish it were more and full-frame)") and got/gets everybody excited. Mx upgrade also solved many very real problems with the old M sensor, as every Red one D.P. had a time when they wished they had more useable high ISOs with nicer-looking and less noise.

Dragon seems to mainly aim to solve an imaginary problem of lack of resolution that no one is really having, not even if you use an Epic for high-end stills work.

WIth MX and Epic all in the community were clamoring with excitement and anticipation. Dragon? Let's face it, not really.

I say this with the best of intentions. It's not too late for Dragon to be "subject to change".

WOrd on the street is that Dragon is rather disappointed in you too, Rob Ruffo.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I'll be thanking you, Tom, for sure, if in the life of the Dragon sensor, I'm shooting even 5 percent of my features, TVCs, etc for a 4k master.

But wait... I've seen 4k screened at Red, shot at 4k on a Red One, and it looked crazy sharp. Everyone said so.

Nah. Couldn't have been.

There is a science and mathematics behind how a Bayer pattern works. Don't take my word for it.

 

[Mark Pugh]

There is a science and mathematics behind how a Bayer pattern works. Don't take my word for it.

Sure. There's perfectionism in a 4k debayer to worry about, and of course there are other things, that affect hundreds of production situations every week, right now.
No one here has said that resolution doesn't matter.
Rob's concern, in this thread, is that resolution might come before all other considerations.
That sounds like a pretty reasonable concern for an Epic owner who loves his camera, is happy with the resolution, but has a range of thoughts about what he's like from his camera into the future.
Especially when it's not resolution that's the MX's weak point.
He, like David Mullen, wants thoughtful balance.

Is that really worth arguing with?

 

[Tom Lowe]

6K is the minimum resolution required to create a clean, true 4K image in low light. So creating a 6K sensor should not be questioned, nor should it be controversial. It is simply logical.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Interesting thread.

According to the limited info we have now, 5K on the Dragon should fit just fine within the Super35 / APS-C / DX envelope. So no more wondering if that lens will "cover at 5K".

True. The S35mm format is a de facto standard for high-quality motion picture production regardless how they get screened. It makes a lot of sense to bring 5K of resolution to this format. This way the lens industry has a guaranteed future with this format which will drive innovations. A very good thing, IMO.

If the S35mm 5K will be 5kHD, even better. Currently I shoot mostly 4kHD. It transcodes very well to 1080p.

If that is the point, it is extraordinarily short-sighted. Red is about 4K finishes. If certain people are only concerned with 2K finishes, why are they here arguing to keep the resolution low on a camera and sensor aimed squarely at 4K finishers?

This is untrue. The vast majority, I would guess 98%, finish their projects in 1080p. BTW, postproduction in 4k is still very painful and does not fit most workflows yet, and, most importantly, is just not needed. However, Jim is passionately pushing 4K which makes a lot of senses for the big screen. Nonetheless, how many redusers shoot blockbusters?

Tom understands some people don't need higher resolutions but if you look at the pole started today you will see that the majority of Redusers do want 6K or higher.

The word "some" does not cope with reality. "Many" would be more appropriate. Most redusers don't visit redusers.net and don't own a red camera.

We also wanted a bigger field of view. Give us full frame. That's cool, and useful.

It's useful for still photographers. In the film film and TV industry S35mm is the standard. Get a wide S35mm lens and you have maximum FOV.

I never understood Red's approach to satisfy still photographers and filmmakers with a Swiss army-knife called DMSC. For 99% of the stills crowd Epic is much too expensive and even Scarlet is questionable if you compare it to the latest DSLRS.



IMO, the published specs of Dragon fit my needs very well: More DR, more sensitivity and 5K for the S35mm format. I think that there are many mainstream pros like me think the same, hence Dragon's specs. Red is listening.

Hans

Edit: changed "many" for "few"

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Dude I agree with you - its great to give RED feedback. And I'm not one to assume RED/JIM don't have their flaws. You could certainly argue that Jim's competitiveness has earned him more than his share of detractors/enemies.

However, you are making wild accusations about a piece of tech that wont be out for a year. You don't even know what the ISO performance is, and yet you are already criticizing it. And you wrote your post in a way that was designed to call attention to itself and be inflammatory. You were trying to get attention, and you did!

My point is: Red is already on their back heels. The Alex is all over the place. Every article I read raves about its low-light. RED KNOWS. They would be committing suicide if the ISO performance doesn't improve. To me, it's such a given that the low-light performance will be much better that I'm not even worried about it.

And 6k? Well, are we really even surprised? 4K was great because you could oversample out some amazing 1080p deliverables. As we enter an age where 4K is now a deliverable in and of itself, it makes sense that RED is going 6K...so you can oversample out some incredibly sharp 4K renders.

No, I was trying to garner participation in a discussion about the issue.

I'm not making wild accusations. My first post stated clearly the sensor was not yet finalized, and that's why I felt the time for constructive feedback was now.

The poster said, in a really big font "6K for 6K". The rest was a smaller font, thus seeming to be less of a priority.

Mike on Red Center Podcast, I heard last night, also publicly stated his lack of excitement about the way this is being pitched to him, and that he may or may not "bother to upgrade".

He and me are real buyers or many Red products with real money and real jobs - he much more than me is someone others in the industry listen to for tech advice.

We both have a lot more $$ to spend than your average hobbiest - oops - I meant "truly passionate filmaker" - and as early adopters it is people like Mike and Jason and me who enable companies like Red to get off the ground. If our desires and needs are of no relevance to Red (which I don;t think is true at all) then Red will not be able to afford to keep innovating.

4K is NOT a deliverable this year for 99% of the industry. I have NEVER hear of a 4K request for ads, music video, fashion video - never, not once. I have to fight sometimes for VFX rendered at 1080p instead of 720 to save time and $$

I don't know a single person with a 4K video display at home, or who has any intention of buying one - you can't even buy one at BestBuy and there are no 2012 mass market TVs that are 4K. Why would an advert producer or music video producer concerned about only next week master in 4K!? That would just be dumb at this point. And so you are left with theatrical releases - which really is just a small part fo the business and thus a small part of Red's customers. There are still few 4K projectors out there, even in theaters.

This is why, as someone who makes a living at this rather than producing "masterpieces" as a hobby, 6K is not useful to me, in my lien of work, where many Epics can be found are are used every day.

Tom Lowe has different needs, David Mullen has different needs. Thats' cool. Red will be most successful if they aim down all of our needs, hitting as many key frequently heard points as possible. In my opinion, that's exactly what they did with the Epic.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Interesting thread.



True. The S35mm format is a de facto standard for high-quality motion picture production regardless how they get screened. It makes a lot of sense to bring 5K of resolution to this format. This way the lens industry has a guaranteed future with this format which will drive innovations. A very good thing, IMO.

If the S35mm 5K will be 5kHD, even better. Currently I shoot mostly 4kHD. It transcodes very well to 1080p.



This is untrue. The vast majority, I would guess 98%, finish their projects in 1080p. BTW, postproduction in 4k is still very painful and does not fit most workflows yet, and, most importantly, is just not needed. However, Jim is passionately pushing 4K which makes a lot of senses for the big screen. Nonetheless, how many redusers shoot blockbusters?



The word "some" does not cope with reality. "Few" would be more appropriate. Most redusers don't visit redusers.net and don't own a red camera.



It's useful for still photographers. In the film film and TV industry S35mm is the standard. Get a wide S35mm lens and you have maximum FOV.

I never understood Red's approach to satisfy still photographers and filmmakers with a Swiss army-knife called DMSC. For 99% of the stills crowd Epic is much too expensive and even Scarlet is questionable if you compare it to the latest DSLRS.



IMO, the published specs of Dragon fit my needs very well: More DR, more sensitivity and 5K for the S35mm format. I think that there are many mainstream pros like me think the same, hence Dragon's specs. Red is listening.

Hans

We use a lot of Canon glass, using a proprietary device which solves the focus mechanics issue - so FF IS cool for us, and will be even more so for more people when Red Remote Pro is released.

Otherwise I 100% agree with what you say.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

6K is the minimum resolution required to create a clean, true 4K image in low light. So creating a 6K sensor should not be questioned, nor should it be controversial. It is simply logical.

Perhaps logical for your particular and unusual needs. Not for mine nor for most Red shooters I know.

 

[Mark Andersen]

For those of us who like to pull stills from the footage, 6K is pretty exciting. But yeah, I can see lots of folk using the 5K mode for features and such. It's actually a slightly smaller 5K frame so that should help a bit with vignetting issues on some lenses. Dragon is a big improvement all around.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Perhaps logical for your particular and unusual needs. Not for mine nor for most Red shooters I know.

Well, for anyone pulling stills or shooting ana, 4:3 and more resolution is just what the doctor ordered.

I don't really see the reason to bash Dragon just yet.

I - at least - have seen no images from it and it will need to be compared to other cameras before one can tell how the new tech affects the result before making any judgement.

RED and all companies are free to predict and gamble on whatr they think will be the next thing. RED apparantly think Dragon is that next thing. It's their bet, not yours.
If anyone had said that the market for high-end S35 cameras would be in the tens of thousands 5 years ago, noone would have believed them.

RED did that more or less singlehandedly.

Let's see how this pans out before judging...

 

[Mark Andersen]

Dragon won't be for everyone, neither is a Metzler module, or a 300mm or a Technocrane. It's just another tool and option, heck some people kept their Red One and didn't upgrade to the Epic. No will force you to buy it, I for one will only start but upgrading one of my Epics, but will probably like it so much, I predict I'll do all three at some point. What we are seeing here is the technology curve start to plane off. The current camera is so good that some feel like we have arrived in technology happy land, and for many its good enough for awhile. I feel like this has already happened in still cameras. In stills I'm happy with 22MP cameras and don't really have a desire to get much more, it's not like most of my Canon lenses can really resolve much more anyway. But in digital cinema we can go a little farther, Dragon is part of that.

 

[Timur Civan]

Hell, there's a lot of people who still have M sensors....

 

[Les C.]

As for your welcoming that visit , that's very macho-cowboy of you, but I doubt you'd really welcome that visit. I also doubt that Oklahoma is anything like NYC L.A. or Montreal when it comes to these things.

There's no permit required to purchase a gun in TX or OK, and a gun permit for a concealed weapon is not very hard to obtain. You can carry one legally to go hunting or to the firing range anyway.

There's also a certain kind of 'John Wayne attitude' among people in that area. They aren't acting 'macho-cowboy', but rather living it to some extent.

The whole 'live free or die' / 'I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands' mantra that Charlton Heston embraced.

But ... enough off-topic musing from me.

As I said, your starting this thread to bring out different opinions on the Dragon is appreciated.