I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

[Ketch Rossi]

NOt talking about DRAGON been Full Frame, but about me needing a BIGGER Sensor, referring to the fact of had let go of my Medium Format LArge Sensor cameras for still work, and only using S35 EPIC Sensor now, so waiting eagerly for that work for the "BIGGER" EPIC 645 Medium Format Sensor...

 

[George Tsai]

NOt talking about DRAGON been Full Frame, but about me needing a BIGGER Sensor, referring to the fact of had let go of my Medium Format LArge Sensor cameras for still work, and only using S35 EPIC Sensor now, so waiting eagerly for that work for the "BIGGER" EPIC 645 Medium Format Sensor...

hopefully when the day comes i'll have the funds to buy the camera AND new lenses

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Man, that unreleased sensor with those unannounced specifications sure sucks.

lol. Exactly what I thought
Seriously, how can people complain about a sensor that nobody has seen yet ?...
2 more stops of shadow info is huge. 6K, well I'm not sure I need that for now, but who cares, I'm not forced to shoot 6K, even today I mostly use the 4K HD mode for HD projects and I'm fine with it. This will still be an option in the future.
Now a bigger sensor, well I'm not sure I want that, a S35+ sensor fills most of my needs, and I'm not so sure I would love a FF sensor for shooting motion.
Better color rendition, well Red hasn't stopped improving that since the beginning, and I'm pretty confident they won't stop anytime soon. Just wait for Dragon with RC4 and RG4 ! ;-)

 

[Per von Koch]

$6k - $9k. It's been stated it's more than Epic and less than a new body.

So I assume that Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon is the same camera? In that case that would be so over the top unfair to offer Dragon upgrade for the Scarlet for 9K.
Let's see...

Epic: 38K+6K=44K for Dragon
Scarlet: 9K+9K=18K for Dragon

 

[Brad Webb]

So I assume that Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon is the same camera? In that case that would be so over the top unfair to offer Dragon upgrade for the Scarlet for 9K.
Let's see...

Epic: 38K+6K=44K for Dragon
Scarlet: 9K+9K=18K for Dragon

Any sensor or camera upgrade RED offers is more than fair. No matter what the price or the terms. When was the last time you got a deal to upgrade your Canon, or Sony, or Arri, or Toyota, or MacPro, or Xbox, etc?

 

[Per von Koch]

Any sensor or camera upgrade RED offers is more than fair. No matter what the price or the terms. When was the last time you got a deal to upgrade your Canon, or Sony, or Arri, or Toyota, or MacPro, or Xbox, etc?

Wow. Really? So I guess that it doesn't matter to you if RED decides to sell Epics for $1250 tomorrow when you have invested $10K in your Kong?

 

[Mark Toia]

Being able to shoot at 20,000 asa clean.. Like the C300 would be all I ask for.
That would save me hiring one when and if I got stuck in really dark conditions.
I dont really need 6k. All my lenses are nipping the corners anyway.
I'm happy already...

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Seriously, how can people complain about a sensor that nobody has seen yet ?...

Exactly.

2 more stops of shadow info is huge.

Then again, applying the same logic, how can people get excited about a sensor nobody has seen yet?

I'm sorry, but in this era of marketing and hype, I personally don't get excited about sensors, cameras, or anything (well, maybe only about lenses sometimes, like the new Arri/Zeiss anamorphics) until I put my hands on them and actually use them.

 

[Tobias Straka]

That's the beauty of RED's concept. The whole thing is modular. So if you don't want or need 6K and if you don't want or need more DR, you don't need to buy the upgrade. RED is committed to releasing new stuff, so I'm sure they will come out with a new sensor that you'll like. And I have a feeling that by then, processing power will have advanced and 6K will not be a problem even with a modest budget. Hell, I can edit 5K on a MacbookPro right now...

 

[Robert Hart]

I am a bit of a luddite, content for now with the SI2K. Until the AU$ slipped recently and dropped me out of the market, I dallied with the notion of buying in a used Red One when my recorder unit did a die and spontaneously resurrected itself.

Over time, going back to the 35mm adaptors, with the lower capital investment required in camera systems, the "reputation" of these appliances as legitimate visual arts tools has been sometimes ( politeness on my part ) compromised by lesser companion value-adding, lighting being one such, post-production being another.

I pro-bono'd my SI2K to low-budget local production only to see the production value thrown away by recoding the clips to inferior codecs and colour rendition in post. I have seen RED origination treated the same way. There was no promotional benefit yielded.

Instead, on the basis of the viewed example, people are too easily inclined to downvalue the aquisition system rather than examine what the stick of no-budget post did downstream to what the camera and operator created.

Just because the new EPIC/SCARLETT sensor will be able to offer high noiseless gains, this does not necessarily mean that the other value-adding by creative lighting should be thrown away.

Maybe as well as entities jumping on the RED bandwagon, the bandwagon itself might need protecting by some sort of endorsement by RED of user entities along the lines of Lucas' THX quality assurance endorsement system.

I imagine this may already be happening when some movies aquired on RED systems wear the RED logo when the credits roll and others don't.


Just because less complemental value-adding can be done away with due to the ability of the new sensor does not mean that it should be. RED users may otherwise be actively lowering the value of their hardware over the long term when they may eventually want to onsell at upgrade time.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Exactly.



Then again, applying the same logic, how can people get excited about a sensor nobody has seen yet?

I'm sorry, but in this era of marketing and hype, I personally don't get excited about sensors, cameras, or anything (well, maybe only about lenses sometimes, like the new Arri/Zeiss anamorphics) until I put my hands on them and actually use them.

You're right. Actually, I'm very happy with the MX right now, and I'll be even happier in a year or so when I'll be able to upgrade to an even better sensor.
Plus, I don't think Red can settle for anything less than what Canon is offering right now in terms of low light sensitivity, so I'm pretty confident they'll be up to the hype. They have to, if they want to stay ahead of the competition. But there will be plenty of time to get excited (or disappointed, even though I highly doubt that) when the time comes.

 

[C.H.Haskell]

"Where are they???...WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS!!!!" - - Denarius Tygarian

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

So I assume that Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon is the same camera? In that case that would be so over the top unfair to offer Dragon upgrade for the Scarlet for 9K.
Let's see...

Epic: 38K+6K=44K for Dragon
Scarlet: 9K+9K=18K for Dragon

Why on earth would you assume that they'd be the same camera after the Dragon upgrade? They'll have the same sensor, but different ASICs, just like they do now.

Wow. Really? So I guess that it doesn't matter to you if RED decides to sell Epics for $1250 tomorrow when you have invested $10K in your Kong?

If RED did that, I'd order five and use my Scarlet as a paperweight. But I wouldn't mind.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

There is no stopping progress and no stopping Jim and Team Red. If your machines can't keep up, ask your clients to shoot less than 5K. Seems simple to me.

Remind me never to hire you to interface with clients.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I fail to see where anyone is FORCING you to upgrade to Dragon if it doesn't fit your needs.

Why all of bitching?

it's not bitching. If I were Jim, I would want honest feedback from clients who buy Red gear as to what their needs and challenges are. I would use this to tailor my offerings accordingly, or at least take them into account. "Oh my God that's so awesome!" 78 times is not useful feedback, really.

I am not afraid to be honest. I love, use, own and promote Red products, but not everything Red is perfect beyond constructive suggestion.

Sensor is, as many mention, not yet released. When it is the time to make useful comments on my needs will have passed. After it is finalized, my comments would indeed be just bitching, and I would not have bothered.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Need to agree with everyone that is wishing for 4:3.
Gavin & Johnny, you nailed it - increasing the height is a must. There are real jobs where that is an important factor - it just makes too much sense.

But wait - 15+ stops native Dynamic Range was part of the announcement.
That could justify the cost of upgrading alone.

Add in HDRX - and whatever improvements are coming in that function (as yet unannounced or implied) - I mean, as a cinematographer - just think of what images you can capture that were impossible just a few years ago. Geez, aren't we already doing that with the cameras in our hands right now?

The 6K spec - OK Bob, I see your point. RED does seem to tout the resolution of their cameras - then again, can you blame them? They have redefined the industry with their innovations and resolution was their trumpet. Without RED, can you imagine how many years we would have waited for the other big boys to bring that capability to us - never mind the affordability.
It's OK to say that 5K is all you need - no one has said that upgrading to 6K is a requirement.

For those that are pointing out the processing power required for higher resolutions - yeah, you are right - but computer technology continues to advance faster than many other industries. We are talking about working footage that will be acquired in 2013 after all - willing to speculate that there will be tools up to the task in the next year or so. If not, shame on them.

What does concern me most is the glass.
How many lenses will be up to the task. A larger sensor with higher resolution will place added demands on optics manufacturers. As it is, the waiting list for the best glass extends beyond the timeline when upgrading to Dragon will start. Need to cover a bigger circle? Are we potentially going to wait until 2014 for new designs to be available to match the sensor capabilities?
Very likely.

That said, back to the first point; 4:3
While we are waiting for true cine glass, we can default to still glass designed for full frame temporarily as we wait for the real thing.

If I were sharing some of the best adult beverages with Jim right now, that would be the first thought I would try to slip in (4:3).
After that, work out a way to achieve long exposures without hot pixels.
We need that still mode for specialized work - make DSMC a true reality. There has got to be a way to do that.

In the meantime, I'll be patient waiting to hear more. Plenty of time between now and the release.
That means plenty of time to work with both my EPIC and Scarlet - I'm happy.

Computer technology is not really advancing, in terms of speed, all that much any more. Something that would beat a 2010 12 core Mac Pro would be very expensive today as expensive as a 2010 Mac Pro in 2010 - which also costs the same as it did in 2010, now two years later. So really, for two years now, high speed has remained at the same cost, give or take a few percentage points.

The go-go days of Intel releasing a new much faster processor every few months are long gone.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Man, that unreleased sensor with those unannounced specifications sure sucks.

Lol, snort.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Color rendition.

I would deposit $9,000 today if you told me the new sensor will have more human colors. I.e. holds the extremes yet keeps skin tones neutral. Yes we can do this with in post or even on set with a LUT... but if we dont, and on set the director crew and client all think Scarlet b-cam looks "a little off" compared to the Alexa, no amount of resolution or DR will make that better. The simple fact is that Red uses an industrial sensor and compresses the color information, while other cameras favor oversampling and uncompressed options. Redcode is genius, but give it a better Bayer structure with more natural colors and it can only improve.

I like the fact that I can shoot 4K images on a camera the size of an old Pentax. I love the RAW workflow, and obviously I need to figure out a better one for on-set looks. But like Rob, I hope that 6k is the marketing trumpet, and more subtle and interesting changes are occurring under the hood, beautiful improvements that Red doesn't want other manufacturers knowing about.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Computer technology is not really advancing, in terms of speed, all that much any more. Something that would beat a 2010 12 core Mac Pro would be very expensive today as expensive as a 2010 Mac Pro in 2010 - which also costs the same as it did in 2010, now two years later. So really, for two years now, high speed has remained at the same cost, give or take a few percentage points.

The go-go days of Intel releasing a new much faster processor every few months are long gone.

Bob,

Wasn't talking specifically about Intel - or Apple ( too much speculation, never enough facts). I used the words "processing power" instead of benchmarking "speed" for a reason.
Pick out individual companies or platforms and a case can be made for any viewpoint.

I'm comfortable with the generic statement that the computer industry is advancing faster than other industry sectors. It's not only motherboards, it's graphic boards, storage and software to name a few. Still a lot of innovation going on.

There have been many posts recently in the workflow threads by people a lot smarter than me inferring increased capabilities being released later this year that will be of value to our work.

Good news - that timeline is in advance of the upgrade to Dragon.

 

[Les C.]

Computer technology is not really advancing, in terms of speed, all that much any more. Something that would beat a 2010 12 core Mac Pro would be very expensive today as expensive as a 2010 Mac Pro in 2010 - which also costs the same as it did in 2010, now two years later. So really, for two years now, high speed has remained at the same cost, give or take a few percentage points.

The go-go days of Intel releasing a new much faster processor every few months are long gone.

That's not exactly correct.

There are more cores, more efficient ways of executing the instructions, more high speed cache on the chips, more of the functionality of other chips integrated into the CPU so that moving data is faster, faster RAM, faster interfaces to hard disk and peripheral devices, etc.

The days of faster clock speeds is over due to the power and heat requirements (speed and heat produced are not linear).

But the days of system speed increases is certainly not over.

---

BTW - as the Dragon is more sensitive, how is the increased density of ND filters going to affect the image?

--

As to some who have concerns about the cost differential between Epic and Scarlet and their 'investment' evaporating ....

Epic/Scarlet are basically high speed computers. What has historically happened to the power and price of computers in the free market where there is a lot of competition?

If you base the 'worth' or value of your business on the price of your camera, maybe you need to think instead about offering value to your customers and a quality product. If the cost of the camera goes down, that's just more money and better tools in your pocket.

It's a good thing, not a bad thing. It is inevitable.

The top DaVinci graders are still making money, even though their $100K system is now given away for free - or $1K for the full version. They are selling their skills, not the price of their tools.

And more development will probably go into DaVinci, so the $100K owners will end up with a better product that will provide them with more power.

They are winning from the price reduction, not losing.