I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

[Patrick Tresch]

6k will not beat out f65 8k for sure.

PS: F65 is not (really) 8k.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I only partially agree just in the sense that if Red just announced a new sensor that was the same dimensions and the same 5K pixel resolution BUT had less noise / more sensitivity and a wider dynamic range, that would have been exciting enough.

If they've managed to pull all of that off PLUS make it 6K as well, then more power to them, that's also great. But that this point, it's the decreased noise and increased DR that is the more exciting news.

An 8K FF35 sensor for the IMAX-type shooters out there would have also been exciting news.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Anyone who has seriously shot and posted a film at 4K knows why shooting 6K is better than shooting 5K. Even the most optimistic people will tell you that the Bayer demosaic causes a 20% loss in resolution. In my experience, the number is much higher in low light situations.

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

One pretty big plus for a 6K sensor will be a major advantage over 5K in reframing/stabilisation options when doing a 4K master and striving for the sharpest possible images. I'd always rather have more resolution than I need than too little or just enough.

 

[Les C.]

Well actually graders are making maybe 1/5th what they were 5 years ago and in many markets you can't make a living with it anymore at all.

A camera is not what I sell myself with as a D.P. - I could get work with no camera at all and just rent anything I wanted. My Epic is a business investment, and I a merely a rental customer among others for this investment. I am a frequent "rental customer" of our Epics, because save a few times when a C300 was needed for extreme low light, the Epic almost always is the best camera choice overall.

Rentals are much more akin to commodities - it has nothing to do with my talent. If I have direct competition from Scarlet owners for rentals I will be in trouble. Arri openly holds back new models to give time to their buyers to recoup their investments first. Some people here seem to have no idea about how business investments are supposed to work. They talk about talent and art. This has NOTHING to do with the issue.

A $34 000 camera is not just "for creative expression". Maybe others here are that rich, but for me if I were not given reasonable time to amortize my $34 000 I would feel burned. Only a fool invests more than a few K in something and doesn't care if it is worth 1/5th the next day.

If Red burned me by making my Epic worth the same as a Scarlet right after I bought it I would not buy any more Red cameras. I'd just rent agnostically. They won't do that. That is not their style. I sincerely doubt they see the target market for Epics as a bunch of fools with no basic business sense and money to throw out the window.

If the graders can't make a living, it's not the fault of the price of the software. At least their upgrade costs have decreased.

Software costs decrease dramatically. Was it Flame or Smoke that originally cost $700,000.00 - and now is maybe $2K? Speedgrade is essentially free, undercutting Resolve's pricing. So it goes.

If your business model depends on RED's prices remaining the same, consider this:

The ironic thing is that the higher RED's price, the quicker competitors will enter the market and undercut them with better features and pricing, undercutting your perceived investment in RED all the sooner (if that's what you think happens when the price comes down).

That's just how the market works. If RED can reduce the pricing, this will delay the entry of competitors who would end up reducing the price anyway.

When a new product comes out with the latest and greatest features, like the RED ... that's typically when there's the greatest price drop coming down the highway.

At least with the RED, we are not stuck, like the owners of the $20K+ Canon cameras when a new model comes out. We have an upgrade path.

You have to factor depreciation into your business model, and if that doesn't make sense, then so be it.

There are Epics renting for $300 a day, by people who may not have thought their own business model through carefully enough to price rationally. This is really what you should be worried about, and unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it.

So, just enjoy the great camera RED has given us, with new features with every build, the ability to upgrade the sensor, and who knows what else in the future.

As the singer says: "Don't worry, be happy Mon!"

 

[Matt Ryan]

+2 stops of DR with a lower noise floor ( no one knows the exact specs yet ), thats more than enough to justify a $6,000 upgrade. Not even to mention 120fps at full 5K. If this upgrade disappoints you, wait for the next sensor. No one is forcing you into purchasing. If your clients want to shoot with your non upgraded Epic, then good for them, they have your camera available. If they want 6K and better DR, then you miss out. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Luckily with RED you have these options.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

6K is a problem. Its' not a good thing. 5K already nearly chokes most fo our workstations here, and we never, EVER say "Gee I wish this was higher resolution"

Be careful with that "we". I personally wish for more resolution than 5k almost every day and quite a few people I know do as well.

The Epic is amazing because it is being used in so many different styles of shooting...it's easy to get tunnel vision and assume your industries' style is the majority. You can always convert hi-res to low res but definitely doesn't work the other way around. RED has always been about giving you MORE than you would usually need so you have ultimate flexibility in post.

Jim said the Monstro line of Epics (FF35, 645, 617) are still in the works...I just don't think they could fit that in the current bodies.

 

[Tom.Wong]

i honestly still don't see what the issue is. just because the camera is capable of shooting 6k, doesn't mean you as a shooter or owner/operator have to shoot at that resolution. nobody is stopping epic owners from shooting quad hd right now either. you have the choices to window down and go lower res. same applies for 6k dragon, where the chip size is almost aps H now. most or even all of your pl glass won't cover it unless you're on the medium to telephoto. you'd have to shoot still or rehoused still glass to get that to cover.

if 5k is making it hard for the industry, the fault is the user not the camera or company behind the camera. it's not like it only shoots that res, people choose and decide that 5k is the right choice. if it wasn't for that job, they wouldn't shoot that plain and simple.


my concern about 6k is whether or not i have to get a 2nd rocket just to see some performance

 

[Rob Ruffo]

If the graders can't make a living, it's not the fault of the price of the software. At least their upgrade costs have decreased.

Software costs decrease dramatically. Was it Flame or Smoke that originally cost $700,000.00 - and now is maybe $2K? Speedgrade is essentially free, undercutting Resolve's pricing. So it goes.

If your business model depends on RED's prices remaining the same, consider this:

The ironic thing is that the higher RED's price, the quicker competitors will enter the market and undercut them with better features and pricing, undercutting your perceived investment in RED all the sooner (if that's what you think happens when the price comes down).

That's just how the market works. If RED can reduce the pricing, this will delay the entry of competitors who would end up reducing the price anyway.

When a new product comes out with the latest and greatest features, like the RED ... that's typically when there's the greatest price drop coming down the highway.

At least with the RED, we are not stuck, like the owners of the $20K+ Canon cameras when a new model comes out. We have an upgrade path.

You have to factor depreciation into your business model, and if that doesn't make sense, then so be it.

There are Epics renting for $300 a day, by people who may not have thought their own business model through carefully enough to price rationally. This is really what you should be worried about, and unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it.

So, just enjoy the great camera RED has given us, with new features with every build, the ability to upgrade the sensor, and who knows what else in the future.

As the singer says: "Don't worry, be happy Mon!"

"Won't worry be happy mon." is not exactly an attitude to help you run a business and build wealth. It originates from a country which, sadly, is among the poorest in the world with terrible levels of child deaths and other heart breaking issues. I would rather work hard and be vigilant. It bugs me when people say this.

Flame and Smoke went down gradually, that didn't happen overnight. The thing is, you want to balance innovation with respect for your loyal, large customers and their investment in gear with you.

I think you still don't quite understand. Graders are TALENT suites are GEAR. Gear is just an investment. It was not the graders who bought the gear back in the day, their employers did, people who made DaVinci possible by rolling the dice on their products. Many are now bankrupt and some can thank, in part BM's attitude of "democratization".

WHat used to be a living wage has in large part been replaced by guys working 20 hours a day alone at home, no longer sharing ideas or their humanity with other except by typing online. This is not an improvement.

It's great to wish for a pretend fantasy world where the cost of the gear you use never affects wages, but in this case it did, and it usually does. It doen't matter what we think should be at some level, as we make a living in what IS.

There are no Epics renting for $300 a day in major cities, at least not this one where cost of living is high. In some cities if you undercut too much you might get a "visit" form your competitors in some form - not something you want. I have heard that is true in Montreal and New York, although since we follow standard pricing except for helping out passionate young people here and there, we've never angered "the powers that be".

Scarlets rent at wildly varying rates. I think they are less money and so are purchased more often by people with no business background and/or no one to advise them on what they need to charge to not go under and make an honest living.

Depreciation is fine. Just not when it's so fast it's giving teh finger to yoru best customers

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Be careful with that "we". I personally wish for more resolution than 5k almost every day and quite a few people I know do as well.

The Epic is amazing because it is being used in so many different styles of shooting...it's easy to get tunnel vision and assume your industries' style is the majority. You can always convert hi-res to low res but definitely doesn't work the other way around. RED has always been about giving you MORE than you would usually need so you have ultimate flexibility in post.

Jim said the Monstro line of Epics (FF35, 645, 617) are still in the works...I just don't think they could fit that in the current bodies.

We meaning the members of my wife's and my post team.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

i honestly still don't see what the issue is. just because the camera is capable of shooting 6k, doesn't mean you as a shooter or owner/operator have to shoot at that resolution. nobody is stopping epic owners from shooting quad hd right now either. you have the choices to window down and go lower res. same applies for 6k dragon, where the chip size is almost aps H now. most or even all of your pl glass won't cover it unless you're on the medium to telephoto. you'd have to shoot still or rehoused still glass to get that to cover.

if 5k is making it hard for the industry, the fault is the user not the camera or company behind the camera. it's not like it only shoots that res, people choose and decide that 5k is the right choice. if it wasn't for that job, they wouldn't shoot that plain and simple.


my concern about 6k is whether or not i have to get a 2nd rocket just to see some performance

I don't want to crop my lens more to end up at 5K. That was my comment.

 

[Paul S.]

Someone who gets it!

Also... For the bulk of us, longevity is really just not relevant. Do I really care if music and fashion videos done now will be of the latest resolution tech in 2 years, let alone 4-5? Do my clients? No and No. Not everyone is producing features and TV.

Well then, to state the blindingly obvious: Don't Buy The Upgrade.

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

As people have said, I don't know if the Dragon sensor will address more than the only 3 specs they've let us in on... but I agree that instead of focusing on more resolution (moving to 6k), more time should be spent on increasing color depth (more bits per channel), less compression, and less noise.
I know it's a little outdated, but director Rian Johnson's "Red Facts" outlines the ways Red can improve to create a better image very well: http://www.rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html
"Red samples at 12-bits and sends 12-bit linear files to the recorder [now 16 with Epic]; F23/F35/Genesis sample at 42-bit and send 30-bit logarithmic files to the recorder."
This being said, Red One and Epic are amazing cameras and I am so thankful for what Red has made affordable for us!

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

There are no Epics renting for $300 a day in major cities, at least not this one where cost of living is high. In some cities if you undercut too much you might get a "visit" form your competitors in some form - not something you want. I have heard that is true in Montreal and New York, although since we follow standard pricing except for helping out passionate young people here and there, we've never angered "the powers that be".

Standard pricing? Is price fixing legal in your country?

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

As people have said, I don't know if the Dragon sensor will address more than the only 3 specs they've let us in on... but I agree that instead of focusing on more resolution (moving to 6k), more time should be spent on increasing color depth (more bits per channel), less compression, and less noise.I know it's a little outdated, but director Rian Johnson's "Red Facts" outlines the ways Red can improve to create a better image very well: http://www.rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html"Red samples at 12-bits and sends 12-bit linear files to the recorder [now 16 with Epic]; F23/F35/Genesis sample at 42-bit and send 30-bit logarithmic files to the recorder."This being said, Red One and Epic are amazing cameras and I am so thankful for what Red has made affordable for us!

That's 12 and 16 bits per channel for RED. The 42 and 30 bits refer to three channels, or 14 bits and 10 bits per channel, thus less than the bit depth of Scarlet and Epic.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I only partially agree just in the sense that if Red just announced a new sensor that was the same dimensions and the same 5K pixel resolution BUT had less noise / more sensitivity and a wider dynamic range, that would have been exciting enough.

If they've managed to pull all of that off PLUS make it 6K as well, then more power to them, that's also great. But that this point, it's the decreased noise and increased DR that is the more exciting news.

An 8K FF35 sensor for the IMAX-type shooters out there would have also been exciting news.

Agreed with you here David, which I think that is exactly what is coming out of the new DRAGON 6K sensor, and don't forget that there is indeed a "9K" EPIC 645 Medium Format Sensor that will BLOW away even IMAX no doubt, of course this camera will demand as with the IMAZ 70mm, their own lenses, fortunately we already have a great array of Medium Format Still Lenses, but we sure hope that RED will also release the Medium Format Lenses along with the EPIC 645, and that as I said before will will be my last Camera...

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well then, to state the blindingly obvious: Don't Buy The Upgrade.

I would rather help Red by soliciting comment from others and providing some myself as to what is most important to all of us, and maybe then have a Dragon come out that really is our collective dream sensor, than just "not buy the upgrade". I feel that is better for myself, the community and Red.

You shouldn't have to be involved in theatrical releases for the Dragon to be meaningful to you. It should be of great interest to many types of users, otherwise they won't sell many, and renters will hear few requests, and so rental houses won't have it available much either . MX upgrade was of primordial utility to every Red owner. I would like Dragon to be as unquestionably wonderful a step only forward, and not only for those doing all their post at Big Iron facilities.

To me this is the value of discussion and debate. Perhaps you are the type who likes to just "shut up and do stuff", but that worldview is not always the most functional.

From what I know of Jim and Jarred they don't maintain this site just to hear 100 pages of "awesome!" They want useful, nuanced feedback so that their end products are a real reflection of all of our needs.

 

[Karl H]

Think you're all giving Rob a hard time here. He's a Red owner and not exactly trolling. Red say they listen to customers, the Reduser forum is where that majority feedback comes from. I see no harm in people voicing opinions about what they would like prioritised and see in future upgrades, from all sides. That's how Epic/Red One evolved in the first place. They changed multiple times before they were released, and in part thanks to this communities ideas and needs along the way.

I'll be using my epic to make low budget shorts/features, so if I can get away with low light situations and battery powered LED's - then that's my holy grail. I remember reading a blog about a test done at a campfire where they shot a group chatting around it with the F3, Epic and AF100. The Epic apparently couldn't be used as it was too noisy, where the other cameras picked up a decent image from the fire. For me - this is where I'd like to see improvements go.

AFAIK pixel density has a correlation to the sensitivity of the camera. Cameras such as the F3 are more capable in low light simply because they have less/larger pixels. Moving to 6K will increase the density further on the Epic (if the chip is similar size). True, the chip will be a new generation so it should be better in low light anyway, but it would be even more sensitive with less/larger pixels. I don't crave more resolution, but I do crave more sensitivity.

 

[Paul Ellington]

I would rather help Red by soliciting comment from others and providing some myself as to what is most important to all of us, and maybe then have a Dragon come out that really is our collective dream sensor, than just "not buy the upgrade". I feel that is better for myself, the community and Red.

You shouldn't have to be involved in theatrical releases for the Dragon to be meaningful to you. It should be of great interest to many types of users, otherwise they won't sell many, and renters will hear few requests, and so rental houses won't have it available much either . MX upgrade was of primordial utility to every Red owner. I would like Dragon to be as unquestionably wonderful a step only forward, and not only for those doing all their post at Big Iron facilities.

To me this is the value of discussion and debate. Perhaps you are the type who likes to just "shut up and do stuff", but that worldview is not always the most functional.

From what I know of Jim and Jarred they don't maintain this site just to hear 100 pages of "awesome!" They want useful, nuanced feedback so that their end products are a real reflection of all of our needs.

Constructive critiques are fine, but when you are always complaining it turns into white noise.

 

[Antony M]

Both of these things were on the original epic announcement 6k full frame and 9k 645 sensors. But they may not fit the epic-x body. Hence an upgraded sensor in the mean time - maybe with 5k inside the s35 measurement so true 4k after debayer and works with current cine lenses.

Also on the original Epic announcement, was full frame 1080p.
Still waiting for that...