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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

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Jon Jones said:
It's funny how there are threads on reduser with people swearing that you don't need a beefed up editing rig, and then there are threads where people complain that their rig is not nearly enough.
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I feel like I've seen that dichotomy as well. Some people talking about how they're editing on a Macbook Air, and others swearing you need at least a decked-out HPZ820 and a Rocket to work with RED footage. I think the truth is that they're all kind of right in different contexts.
 
Yeah, it all depends on if you render out of Redcine. I'm sure I could cut some good timelines on a Macbook Air, albeit with a lot of pre-rendering. Although a beefed up HPZ280 would be B.A! I myself have 1 RED ROCKET already and have noticed limitations, so I am ordering 2 more, as well as some other gear.
 
If you don't need what they are selling - don't buy it.

I'm not certain whether or not I'm going to upgrade to Dragon - these next-gen cameras are already nearly everything I want or need a camera to be. Thanks to RED, I may finally hop off the carousel for awhile. But it doesn't mean that the carousel itself has to stop. You can be disappointed with DRAGON, if that suits you. Me, I prefer to be delighted, daily, with my EPIC and my SCARLET.

When RED started up, we definitely needed better camera options at better price points. Now - not so much.

Bring on the delivery systems.
 
I've heard the "Horned Toad" sensor (due 2023) will solve all our problems and create life-sized 4D images that smell like ice-cream.
 
Need to agree with everyone that is wishing for 4:3.
Gavin & Johnny, you nailed it - increasing the height is a must. There are real jobs where that is an important factor - it just makes too much sense.

But wait - 15+ stops native Dynamic Range was part of the announcement.
That could justify the cost of upgrading alone.

Add in HDRX - and whatever improvements are coming in that function (as yet unannounced or implied) - I mean, as a cinematographer - just think of what images you can capture that were impossible just a few years ago. Geez, aren't we already doing that with the cameras in our hands right now?

The 6K spec - OK Bob, I see your point. RED does seem to tout the resolution of their cameras - then again, can you blame them? They have redefined the industry with their innovations and resolution was their trumpet. Without RED, can you imagine how many years we would have waited for the other big boys to bring that capability to us - never mind the affordability.
It's OK to say that 5K is all you need - no one has said that upgrading to 6K is a requirement.

For those that are pointing out the processing power required for higher resolutions - yeah, you are right - but computer technology continues to advance faster than many other industries. We are talking about working footage that will be acquired in 2013 after all - willing to speculate that there will be tools up to the task in the next year or so. If not, shame on them.

What does concern me most is the glass.
How many lenses will be up to the task. A larger sensor with higher resolution will place added demands on optics manufacturers. As it is, the waiting list for the best glass extends beyond the timeline when upgrading to Dragon will start. Need to cover a bigger circle? Are we potentially going to wait until 2014 for new designs to be available to match the sensor capabilities?
Very likely.

That said, back to the first point; 4:3
While we are waiting for true cine glass, we can default to still glass designed for full frame temporarily as we wait for the real thing.

If I were sharing some of the best adult beverages with Jim right now, that would be the first thought I would try to slip in (4:3).
After that, work out a way to achieve long exposures without hot pixels.
We need that still mode for specialized work - make DSMC a true reality. There has got to be a way to do that.

In the meantime, I'll be patient waiting to hear more. Plenty of time between now and the release.
That means plenty of time to work with both my EPIC and Scarlet - I'm happy.
 
I think the problem here was Rob's choice of words in the name of the thread. If he put something like "my dream Dragon sensor" or "dragon sensor features wish list" this wouldn't go the way it is going.

I'm sure Red isn't asleep at the weel and they know what people want. Their aim is to jhave the best offer vs the competition on the market- I never doubt that. The 6K was just a "trademark" feature from red, but the rest will surelly be at least a match or superior to the current competition- by competition I say f65, Alexa and the new C500. I've recently shot a short film with the Epic in fairly low lighting conditions and loved its low light capabilities. Jarred said something about Dragon being clean to 3200 Iso, and that's more than enough for me. There is currently a revolution happening in LED lighting, if you guys aren't aware. I just bought 3 Led lights with output equivalent to 800, 1000 watt tungsten powered by V mount batteries that last 3 hours consecutive per battery, and they cost about 200 dollars each. No more power generator issues and one can light as he pleases. The filmmaking revolution i not only about low light sensibility but the democratization of all the other aspects!
 
i personally have never been disappointed with any camera or sensor I have bought from Red. Don't think Dragon will disappoint the Dawg.
 
well ... 6k is a logical step if he's gonna make it all the way to 28k. (lest we forget)
 
. . . don't need anymore K's - for me it's all about ISO and DR. I shoot high frame rate in available light. 1/96+ at F5.6 at ISO320 doesn't cut it sometimes. Please keep the pixel count the same and deliver sensitivity and DR. 5K is plenty for the next 3 years at least.
 
Better lower light performance is really the kicker for me. More DR is nice, but I can live with ND filters, 13 stops is still fantastic but "dancing flies" in my daylight image in the blacks is unacceptable. Moreover, being able to shoot dusk/dawn is pretty incredible, I look forward to the Dragon but not the ditch digging to pay for it. Anyone here past ditch digging? :)

Stivan Widick said:
And a much lower noise floor.
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Me too, 5k is plenty for the next 3-5 years.

Josh Beadle said:
. . . don't need anymore K's - for me it's all about ISO and DR. I shoot high frame rate in available light. 1/96+ at F5.6 at ISO320 doesn't cut it sometimes. Please keep the pixel count the same and deliver sensitivity and DR. 5K is plenty for the next 3 years at least.
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Well, for me since I let go entirely all my Photo Still cameras, including the Medium Format ones, I have been sacrificing a great dela of Resolution in that end, including the Bigger sensor of course, so DRAGON, is a very welcome upgrade that we'll do as immediately as available, even so our prints are coming out insanely great at 6' tall, I just need more resolution, as I now use EPIC exclusively for both Motion and Still Frame Extractions for Print work, the extra Resolution and Pixel counts is realy welcome, of course any added DR, ISO and Magic within is most welcome.

As I said before, I truly believe that the EPIC 645, will be my last CAMERA!!
 
full frame sensors can be a double edge sword. you really become limited with your lens choices if dragon ended up being full frame. RED's very early projects to have a separate full frame sensor to upgrade to was a wise choice. for those who want it, can have it. but right now, the oldest thing inside of the Epic right now is the sensor itself. that technology is a few years old, and they feel a need to upgrade that to achieve a wider native DR, better noise floor, etc. if a little more resolution is the outcome so be it. in fact it's pretty smart. the chip will be slightly bigger, but now you can shoot in a "5k aps c" windowed mode. all PL lenses will cover again. while you have your extra res if you have the lenses that cover. just because it shoots 6k doesn't mean u have to use it all. the extra res just gives you more wiggle room with lens choices.

a full frame sensor is bound to be around the corner, but for the big mainstream, and most def in hollywood they want to be able to keep their lens choices. a more updated non full frame sensor is the right move.
 
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