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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I know I'm Not the only one that feels bad for AJA Cion

shashbugu

shashbugu

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I know I'm not the only one that feels bad for AJA Cion, they have the perfect Indie movie cam, with a so so sensor. seven years ago we would have all lined up around the block to buy that camera. Jim, Jarred, please buy the camera department of Aja and toss in a Dragon sensor into that camera as a Prores only product for $6k. you will kill the market for Blackmagic, Sony, Canon, JVC, Panasonic etc etc etc. You can call it the Red Scarlet Junior
 
Yeah they missed the boat. They may have had a chance if they launched this at last years NAB. Now they're doing a city by city tour to get some momentum for the camera. Doesn't look good.
 
I don't feel bad for them, so much as I feel bad for whomever greenlit it at that price with those specs.

It launched at ~$9k (still is, I think) and wasn't as good as a Scarlet, which came out two+ years earlier and launched for $1k less... It just didn't make sense out of the gate. Maybe at $5000 it could've moved some units (even with only 12stops), but at $9k? No... Even if they were to slash the price in half, it'd be too late; Ursa Mini is due out, used Scarlets are inexpensive, GH4's offer "good-enough" 4k for a fraction of the cost (even at $5k), no "consumer-level" lens mount option... It understandably falls between the cracks.

Bob Gundu said:
Yeah they missed the boat. They may have had a chance if they launched this at last years NAB. Now they're doing a city by city tour to get some momentum for the camera. Doesn't look good.
Click to expand...

Wasn't it launched at NAB2014 though (or just announced)?
 
Mike P. said:
I don't feel bad for them, so much as I feel bad for whomever greenlit it at that price with those specs.

It launched at ~$9k (still is, I think) and wasn't as good as a Scarlet, which came out two+ years earlier and launched for $1k less... It just didn't make sense out of the gate. Maybe at $5000 it could've moved some units (even with only 12stops), but at $9k? No... Even if they were to slash the price in half, it'd be too late; Ursa Mini is due out, used Scarlets are inexpensive, GH4's offer "good-enough" 4k for a fraction of the cost (even at $5k), no "consumer-level" lens mount option... It understandably falls between the cracks.



Wasn't it launched at NAB2014 though (or just announced)?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah i forgot about the lens mount, OUCH! DOA
 
It´s not comparable to scarlet, more like a red one MX or even less than that. building a shoulder camera like that today is to me really not smart. In the very low end people get a little GH4 or a black magic instead or something that´s possible to put on a gimbal. And if people have a bigger budget then again this is not the camera they will go looking for.

I can not understand why they try to sell cameras without swappable mounts 2015. Same with black magic, why on earth did they not make it with low cost swappable lens mounts?
Pretty much any one that is into buying a "cinema" camera are concerned about what lenses can be used. I honestly think the RED Epic / Scarlet design with swappable mounts is really what made it sell in large numbers especially in the lower end. People simply get money to spend on camera and can upgrade lenses later, or rent PL when need etc as pretty much everyone has a few EF, nikon or other lenses at home long before they buy an expansive camera.
 
bmd ursa does have swappable mounts, with sensor so you can easily upgrade as well. new sensor block/mount is $2k same as red pl mount only.
 
The only issues I see here are the less sexy 12 stops and fixed lens mount. 12 stops which are not a drama if one intends on using some fill light and is more than R1 gave, yet it didn't stop it from becoming a hit at twice the cost. And weight. It costs what it costs because things cost money. Scarlet does not support UHD 120p, Prores recording or offers balanced audio.

It is shoulder mount because many shooters want a proper shoulder mount "grab and shoot" type of handheld friendly camera (which is why Amira and FS7 were made) and not an ultra cheap toaster camera-wannabee which needs lego work to be functional for anything else than shooting scenery from a tripod if it's not too bright outside, where those few K's saved in the wallet mess up shooting indefinitely. It is a different philosophy from what has become popular. This camera was thought through from a shooter's perspective so hats off to Aja and hopefully it gains momentum.
 
Hard to price that in the same range as the FS7. Seems like wishful thinking.
 
DSC01511-AJA-CION-ShipsFDT.jpg


This is why I'm sad...
 
It was such a beautiful promise. I really wanted one.
I would buy one at 3,5k.
Doesn´t make any sense today to pay more than that.
So many better options.
 
That is very true. There are many, many options out there. I can see where a lot of companies will get caught in the 4K squeeze: you have the high end cameras in the $40,000-$75,000 price range, and then a lot of economical cameras in the $5000 and below price range. The ones in between could be in trouble, at least from one point of view.

In truth, I've never heard of a client demanding one specific camera provided it hits certain minimum performance specs and can handle the workflow they need for post. I really like AJA as a company, but the camera business is very, very tough these days.
 
Conversely, they could have priced it so high because they knew they wouldn't sell that many of them. They could be exactly hitting their goals.

I always find it funny when people find things to complain about with Blackmagic cameras and things like this. There was a time, not long ago, when people would literally pay more than sticker price for a hacked DVX that shot 720p. We would all explode if we had 2.5K RAW back then.

I'm super glad that Aja did this even if they aren't selling well. What an awesome time for cinema tech, with so many companies in the ring, who knows what's right around the corner?
 
That's mighty selfish of you Andy ;-)
I feel bad for AJA.
Jon is a super person and a very brilliant engineer. Unfortunately as a camera manufacturer they are grossly incompetent. That's very surprising given their experience in signal processing. There is really no nice way to say it. And the proof is in the pudding....
 
Ugh.
That doesn't help though.
 
Marc Wielage said:
here are many, many options out there. I can see where a lot of companies will get caught in the 4K squeeze: you have the high end cameras in the $40,000-$75,000 price range, and then a lot of economical cameras in the $5000 and below price range. The ones in between could be in trouble, at least from one point of view.
Click to expand...

Yup. I love Jon and Nick - great guys IMO - but - the Cion is DOA. With the democratization of tools driven by technology - the "middle" always falls away. There is always a "top" end and a "bottom" end - and they in fact expand. The "middle" falls away and get replaced by "used, second hand high end" as opposed to new "middle" solutions.

Anything above $5K and below $40K is "middle" - and in that budget - you are better off buying used "high end".

Now, the Canon C300 MK II is clearly shooting for the "middle" and it will be interesting to see how that camera sells as the C300 out sold expectations - as opposed to the C500 - which are piled in a warehouse right now. But there are a lot more options now on the "lower middle" than when C300 launched.

But yeah ... Cion for $9000 vs. C300 MK II for $16K .... I suspect TONS more folks will drop the extra $6K for C300 MK II.

But you have to ask ... C300 MK II for $16K or a used Dragon for $18-$20K ESPECIALLY after Weapon starts rolling out.

The middle falls away. Buy above $40K or below $5K ... or buy used high end for a "middle" price. Or just rent :)
 
People that buy Canon are not interested in RED. Or much of anything else for that matter. They buy Canon for very specific reasons- low light, colors, workflow. If they were interested in Red they'd have had bought Scarlet 3 years ago (wow that long ago?!!!) They are however seriously looking at the URSA Mini guessing from DVX and other forums ;-)
 
I thought the C300 was a giant scam; 1080p for $16k when 4k options where being released every 4 months (and Scarlet was readily available)... Crazy that it sold as it did. That said, after using one, I realized very quickly where it's niche was, and how it hit that nail directly on the head... Would I pay for one? Absolutely not (I'd rather $16k worth of kitted 5Dmk3s). Does it serve its specific purpose better than RED, Arri, Sony (pre-FS7)? Absolutely.

Cion, on the other hand, suffers from riding the fence too much. A really great design, coupled with a comparatively meagre sensor, and priced way too expensive for what it offers (compared to the competition), means it has no place. The irony is, if it came out when the C300 came out, Canon/C300 probably wouldn't have done nearly as well.
 
Jacek Zakowicz said:
People that buy Canon are not interested in RED. Or much of anything else for that matter. They buy Canon for very specific reasons- low light, colors, workflow. If they were interested in Red they'd have had bought Scarlet 3 years ago (wow that long ago?!!!) They are however seriously looking at the URSA Mini guessing from DVX and other forums ;-)
Click to expand...

URSA Mini will be wildly successful and dominate the low end - assuming they ship and it works.
 
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