i keep on seeing AC units getting measurements this way...

[Bryan Colvin]

When I'm on film shoots I see the tape measure come out every time for focus marks

But on some of the digital shoots I see them making their marks by doing the zoom in / focus routine.

From what I can tell the tape measure works faster, what do you guys do?

(a lot of the guys that focus with the screen are younger guys that seem like a trust fund bought them their red). I'm not saying necessarily that doing it by the screen is wrong, but I've just noticed it seems like the less experienced are doing this way...

 

[Kyle Wullschleger]

The fact is a lot of new ACs coming up through the ranks have only shot digital and specifically started with dslr cameras and photography lenses with no real marks on the lens. So measuring wouldn't get you anywhere with those lenses.

Not saying it is right but it is the best method with that format and it probably carries over as their way of doing it.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Well on film shoots all you have is video assist. That's a low quality low resolution signal that won't show any decent focus.
On digital shoots you have a full hd sharp picture, with the punch in option to boot. no comparison...

 

[Peter Strietmann]

Most ACs use laser range finders like, http://www.amazon.com/Leica-Digital...1368142482&sr=8-3&keywords=leica+tape+measure

It is nice to punch (1 to 1) in to check though.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Whats on the screen is what you get. So if possible to zoom in and check, then thats a better option. Lenses are not allways correctly marked, usually they are not. So an AC that says that he only go by the marks and use he's tape mesure has to be sure the lens is correct. i.e done a lens test of the whole set etc. As mentioned above the markings are coming fro man eara when it was imposible to see focus of the screen / video tap of the film camera. So zooming in on a 5k image and see hat is sharp is basically the most accurate way of setting focus. Even though it can be kind of hassle for the dp if the ac is there pinching the screen the whole time..

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Back in the day taping was the only logical approach. Now there are other options which can work well enough to be used if so desired.

Back in the day legit cine lenses had very tight tolerances on their witness marks and scales, with plenty of incremental distance markings which made taping quite precise.

Even when film cameras added video taps, they were poor focusing tools due to limited contrast and resolution.

These days a lot of people shoot with unmarked, or sparsely marked focus rings, some of which are not even repeatable (many stills lenses)

These days the live image from the camera is much sharper, clearer and higher resolution so it is a viable focus tool. Especially with one to one punch in.

These days, as noted, a lot more inexperienced people have pro level kit who never would have in the past, by whatever means (FWIW IMO the trust fund comment undercuts your point, but I digress). I would also concur with the generalization that many come from a small sensor camcorder background and don't fully grasp how precise focus needs to be on a larger sensor, particularly at fat stops.

I would also point out that these days budget minded producers are much more likely to cut a proper prep day. Which means you may end up with a lens or two that are slightly off (or are sensitive to a slight FFD error) - in which case the taping method is a fail.

FWIW I think that integration of CineTape level tools into integrated electronic controls like focus assist, confirm and even auto focus in some use cases will expand quite a bit over the next few years. That said, for some narrative projects the intentional manipulation of the focus plane will still stand alone as a creative technique that requires human beings.

Cheers - #19

 

[Christopher Barrett]

On a recent short I was on B Cam with no AC. I brought along my Leica Disto, set the distance on my Cookes and nailed focus every time. Faster than punching in.

 

[ed ng]

Trust fund babies? Less experienced? Interesting.

I have worked with AC's that measure and some that measure and monitor. Myself, I do what is right for the shot and not the method that puts me into the trust fund or old school side.

We were shooting in a rocky area with a lot of terrain with a camera move on a jib so taping and measuring was not going to work well for us so we marked off and targeted specific points such as passing over a rock and areas that were static. We used the monitor to assist with the shot and got it.

I look at the monitor, it tells you what you are capturing and tells everyone else the same thing. If you only look at tape and a focus marker only, you may be out of focus until playback or someone says your not in focus.

If I can get focus, I have done my job, period. I could really care less about the method if my AC is dead on all the time but that is only my opinion.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

What worries me is when people zoom in manually on a dslr-lens to set focus, especially when the camera have a 1:1 button.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Focusing off of a monitor alone is bad juju. Using it as one of the many tools in your kit is OK. The main problem with pulling from a monitor is that you are always reacting vs anticipating. Actors have specific body language. They try to fuck you every time. They do the fake stand up before they get out of the chair (which is why you should be on a gear head ;-) ), they squint and then lean in, they sigh and lean back. It's how they roll. It's hard to get that rhythm if you are looking at a monitor instead of the actor.

Nick

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Nick has a very good point. Now, I'm not a DP, but seriously, I couldn't care less how one establishes focus (as Ed Ng said). I'm very old school in everything I do and I have no problem knowing that people use a monitor to establish focus. However... think about this. You still need reliable, accurate lenses with finely spaced witness marks. Because, as others have already said, actors move. A focus puller's job is demanding enough and you want to give him SLR lenses?

Perhaps you could tell the actors not to move during shots. Oh, and don't move the camera, either. That will let you use your f/1.2 SLR lenses with no problems at all. ::sarcastic smirk::

 

[Bryan Colvin]

LOL thanks for the responses. i'm not saying ALL ppl that focus with zooming in are trust fund kids lol. i guess if you're using it to get your marks, and then just look at the actor you're still in good shape. i've seen a lot of guys focus looking at the monitor during the take though and they definitely buzz on some takes

 

[Shane Kelly]

Focusing off of a monitor alone is bad juju. Using it as one of the many tools in your kit is OK. The main problem with pulling from a monitor is that you are always reacting vs anticipating. Actors have specific body language. They try to fuck you every time. They do the fake stand up before they get out of the chair (which is why you should be on a gear head ;-) ), they squint and then lean in, they sigh and lean back. It's how they roll. It's hard to get that rhythm if you are looking at a monitor instead of the actor.

Nick

I had a conversation about exactly this on a shoot 2 days ago. An AC who doesn't know how to judge distance and is always using the monitor is always reacting to what is on screen, not anticipating what the actor may do. Unfortunately, I'm seeing it more and more these days. A combination of taping (or disto) and monitor work is what works the best.

 

[Nathaniel Kramer]

We use a tape about 50 % of the time. Our Ultra Primes are spot on accurate to tape measures. Many times however, I pull focus for myself. I was a fashion fotog for years, always on telephotos, models always moving, so Its second nature for me to anticipate movement and nail focus.. Im dead on 90% of the time and thats at T2.0. That being said, the tape is very useful when there are multiple subjects in the frame. Also in low light the tape is indispensable. Otherwise, most of the time, Red LCD and focus assist does the trick.

 

[Hans Engstrom]

I always use a combination of tape marks and eye marks. Did my first 35mm feature in 3 years recently with a standard (non HD) IVS and what I noticed is that I have established a habit of checking the monitor every time a movement stops. It really didn´t help me on the 35mm shot and it made me loose important time checking the actors movement. The best part with HD monitors is that they enable you to judge focus yourself so they are great during rehearsals as you can get marks by the eye without looking thru the viewfinder. Sometimes you are not able to check the monitor on RED/Alexa shoots as well and then the old 35mm skills come handy. I think it´s all about using what works best for the shot, there are no right or wrongs.

Btw my real name is Hans Engstrom and I have asked to get my name changed to that.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1357950

 

[Scott Crawley]

You still need reliable, accurate lenses with finely spaced witness marks. Because, as others have already said, actors move. A focus puller's job is demanding enough and you want to give him SLR lenses?

Perhaps you could tell the actors not to move during shots. Oh, and don't move the camera, either. That will let you use your f/1.2 SLR lenses with no problems at all. ::sarcastic smirk::

My first reaction was to assume DSLR lenses, but then that can't be right... at least not with Canon L glass, since only one or two of those is parfocal. Am I missing something?

 

[Björn Benckert]

We actually done some quite cool tests where we mounted a Xbox kinect on our epic and had some propietary code made that showed a 3d plane pulling in and out trough a kinect 3d representation of whats infront of the camera right onto a AC screen.


It's quite amasing what that kinect thing can do, especially considering it's like 200 bucks of hardware. It's actually without competition the best focusing tool I ever seen to date, even though it was not refined, has to be connected to a computer and so on. It was actually so good so I should not tell you guys about it and file for patent instead


I think red should buy a few and put their programers and engineers on it and take them appart and put them as an extention of the meizler... then they would do for the AC world what they did to the camera world.

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Pulling focus is a hard job if you do it for a living. You'll run into many different situations where one tool or another will fail you. So you need as many tools in your quiver as possible to help you judge focus properly.

Eye marks in conjunction with tape marks, whether via optical viewfinder or 1:1 monitoring, are great for long lens shots, but only if the camera or the subject is moving and the other is static or moving in a repeatable way.

Laser rangefinders are great for quick ballpark marks in the 8-60' range or for spatial reference, not so great for really accurate marks as you can't get it too close to the actor's eyes. Mostly useless outdoors in bright sunlight beyond 10' (at least my Leica A5 is). Great when working around a lot of obstacles like on water or in an auditorium.

Soft tape is great for accurate marks on dolly or sticks in the 5-20' range, takes a little more time to run it out and wind it back up.

Hard tape is great for fast ballpark marks in the 3-8' range, especially for handheld or steadicam.

Cinetape is great for spot checking those handheld/steadicam shots during a take, more of a ballpark figure though. Because it's $200/day to rent, I hardly ever get to have one on the types of jobs I work on (ie. not big union tv series or movies). Plus you need a Preston 3 with the special cable to get the readout on the hand unit, another $400/day.

Large HD monitor. Not gonna lie, I use it all the time for long lens remote focus run-and-gun work. It's a fallback but sometimes you just need it.

Hyperfocal/depth of field. Will save your ass on occasion, just don't live by it. Usually it's best to live by the motto "it's either sharp or it ain't."

Your brain, judging distance by sight and experience. Pretty much the only way to pull focus on a lot of jib, as well as long duration steadicam and handheld shots. Invaluable, the one tool that you can't break or lose on set. Sometimes needs to be recalibrated though...

Zen Focus. You're whipping around on circular dolly track, ducking under the camera, on a 200mm WFO, no way to see the lens or a monitor. Sometimes you just get into a groove like a musician or an athlete - you can feel the focus and you can't miss. You can never rely on it, but sometimes the gods smile down on you. Likewise, the gods can be capricious. It'll be a lock off on sticks on a 25mm with the talent in a simple walk-up, 12'-8'-5' and you can't hit your marks to save your life. Hopefully you have more days of the former and less of the latter. Otherwise, you'll have to move up to operator.

Addendum to Zen Focus - pulling your own focus by feel. Gets easier with experience, some operators are amazing at this - see: NFL Films. Works best with repetitive action. Following high speed action on a long lens from a fluid head takes a lot of practice, but if you're already a good operator then it's easier than you might think. It's all about being one with the camera and the the subject you're following, no need to anticipate because you already know where the subject will be. The focus just follows. Sounds crazy, but that's what it feels like.

*Forgot to add:

Playback/Dailies. Sometimes, nothing helps more to get it right than knowing where you went wrong. Playback is obviously infinitely more helpful as you can do something about it before you move on...

 

[Phil Holland]

Pretty much what Satsuki said, especially on the Zen Focus concept.

I have a Disto I use occasionally, tape too. Both are no good if you are trying really lock critical focus on an eyeball. Don't love Cinetapes, but I agree about their usefulness for "very moving" camera.

I picked up a load of tricks from ACs over the years involving gaff tape, finger placement/usage, relative framing reference, etc.... It's just a combination of too many things. The only thing I know for sure is that with practice, a lot of practice, you can pull off consistent miracles. I do wild pulls all the time (I actually enjoy that way of operating) and I find it's mostly a combination of an keen observation, visual reference "imprints", rehearsals, good hand eye coordination, and a form of predictive thinking. Knowing how your actors move is pretty valuable, both when rolling and not.

 

[Evin Grant]

These days the majority of 1st's I work with use the 5.6" TV-Logic with a combination of peaking and the (Focus in Red) mode. They also have cinetapes, laser rangefinders (Hilti mostly) and some soft/hard tape. Basically everything mentioned here already is used to get it close, which would have been sharp on film with it's thicker emulsion, but the FIR/P on the monitors allows for that extra pop in the highlight of the eye so you know you nailed it on a complex setup with multiple actors transitioning and only casually landing on marks. It's amazing what good actors that can hit their marks can do for the performance of an AC. The FIR might seem like a gimmick at first and it's hard to watch for a DP like myself since it basically obscures the image too much to be useful for anything except focus, but once it's dialed it in to your particular AC's taste there is nothing that is a better balance between speed and critical focus.