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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HP Z840 or Z820

Thanks to all who answered my original question,
I have just received the Z840 and am basically happy with it. Unfortunately I am having problems getting my old 16TB SAS raid to work with it.
If I start the computer without the raid plugged in everything works and Windows boots without problems. If I then connect the raid to the built in SAS port on the Z840 I am able to see and use it in a normal way.
Unfortunately if I try and boot the computer with the raid attached the computer tries to boot from the raid rather than the internal SSD which I believe is also connected via SAS and the computer fails to boot and states that a boot device has not been found.
In both the LSI configuration utility and the HP BIOS it would seem that the internal drive is listed before the raid in the order of devices to use to boot from.
The raid is 3Gbs and the built in SAS port is 6Gbs.
After 4 hrs problem solving with HP they have said that there is nothing wrong with the computer and that I need to take the problem to the manufacturer of my raid. Unfortunately the raid is an Avid Videoraid SR (made by Promise) and is no longer supported.
The spec of the computer is:
Dual 3.1 GHz 10 core machine
128GB (8x16GB) DDR4 2133MHz ECC Registered RAM

HP 512GB Solid State Drive - SATA 6Gb/s
HP Nvidia Quadro K5200 Professional Workstation Graphics
Windows 7 pro 64 bit

My question is does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could get this working or am I stuck with a computer that I am unable to use.
Thanks in advance, Tom.
 
Michael
Thanks for replying, sorry for your pain but is always good to see a repeated problem.
I am in the process of talking to HP again now and it would be good to know a bit more about your system.
  1. Is it a Z840 you are using?
  2. What raid are you using and what is the spec? How many drives, what size, speed of SAS connection 3Gb/s or 6Gb/s?, manufacturer, age?
  3. Spec of the Z840?
  4. How is the raid connecting to it, is it via a built in HP SAS port?


Will definitely post if I manage to solve the problem.
 
I will ask my tek guy to jump in but the basics are...

Z840
Avid 16bay SR (500gb drives with a 3g interface)
2x10c 2.6 chips with 64gb ram
Built in port for conection..

thanks again

Michael

Tom Hanmer said:
Michael
Thanks for replying, sorry for your pain but is always good to see a repeated problem.
I am in the process of talking to HP again now and it would be good to know a bit more about your system.
  1. Is it a Z840 you are using?
  2. What raid are you using and what is the spec? How many drives, what size, speed of SAS connection 3Gb/s or 6Gb/s?, manufacturer, age?
  3. Spec of the Z840?
  4. How is the raid connecting to it, is it via a built in HP SAS port?


Will definitely post if I manage to solve the problem.
Click to expand...
 
In your BIOS boot configuration, do you have the internal SSD listed first in the boot order? If they're both connected to the LSI controller, you don't get the luxury of that configuration choice, it goes off of port assignment, I believe. You may need to swap around connections. That said, the internal LSI SAS controller is garbage, I would recommend disabling it and using a third party controller from Areca or ATTO. Also, if you're connecting 16 bays external via a single 3Gbps connection, that's horrible by today's standards. Hope that doesn't make me come across as a jerk. Just telling it like it is. :/

You should have the 6Gbps SSD connected to one of the onboard 6Gbps SATA ports. Not to the LSI host. You can put that controller in the boot order before the LSI controller. Not sure why else the system would try to boot from the RAID.
 
In your BIOS boot configuration, do you have the internal SSD listed first in the boot order? If they're both connected to the LSI controller, you don't get the luxury of that configuration choice, it goes off of port assignment, I believe. You may need to swap around connections. That said, the internal LSI SAS controller is garbage, I would recommend disabling it and using a third party controller from Areca or ATTO. Also, if you're connecting 16 bays external via a single 3Gbps connection, that's horrible by today's standards. Hope that doesn't make me come across as a jerk. Just telling it like it is. :/
Click to expand...

Information is always handy don't worry about how you come across...

The basic reality is I have a horrible project on there from years ago. I need to tidy it up and I am procrastinating.. after that the units main use is stopping me having to buy some blanking pates for the rack it is in.. I do like a old fashioned raid (backup power and on board controller but it is a bit long in the tooth)... We use shared storage for 99% of our work here.

You should have the 6Gbps SSD connected to one of the onboard 6Gbps SATA ports. Not to the LSI host. You can put that controller in the boot order before the LSI controller. Not sure why else the system would try to boot from the RAID.
Click to expand...

This is I belive how it has been setup here.. I will check again with my tek guy and post back..
 
Jeff
Thanks for the info, definitely not coming across as a jerk, the more information I have the better.
A couple of questions though.

What do you mean by swapping around connections, is that a hardware thing. I did build a computer years ago but have thought better of it since! I should be ok on relatively basic stuff.
Also if the connection on the raid is 3Gbps will there be any speed advantage putting a 6Gbps card into the computer. I understand it will give me more options for configuring the system.
Would I not put the LSI controller in front of the Areca/ Atto controller in the boot order as it is the LSI host that connects to the internal drive.
Thanks again for your input.
 
Hi Tom,

I believe Jeff is referring to the storage controllers on the Z840 motherboard when he says "swapping".

The internal SSD is shipped hooked up to the LSI host (the 8 SATA ports that run along the bottom edge of the motherboard [if the machine is standing up in its normal orientation]). Swapping the internal SSD to be connected to one of the SATA ports, on the SATA controller (the SATA ports which sit above the LSI host) may solve the problem, as it can be chosen to boot before the LSI.

This is how our Z800 machines are setup. Which leads me to believe if I do the same in the Z840 it might work.

I am waiting to try this myself, but we are currently in the midst of a big project and don't want to be fiddling with stuff...

I'll let you know if I find a moment to try. But you might just beat me to it.

Charlie (Michael's tek guy)
 
Charlie
Thanks for clarifying that, will definitely try that if my current action fails. As is the nature of all hard drives my raid is almost totally full and is now exhibiting concerning behaviour even on my old XW8600 so I am in the process of backing up all the data on it (looks like it will take the next 36 hrs). Will then try reformatting with the Z840 before moving on to try other things. Will let you know next week if I have had any success.
Tom
 
Yes guys, I was referring to the integrated LSI SAS controller in the Z8x0 workstations, I guess I was making the assumption that is what was being used when LSI SAS was mentioned. Those integrated controllers are kinda crappy with poor management tools. We can specify where the integrated controller falls in the system boot order, but it's difficult or impossible to specify which drive volume attached to that controller should be first in the order. Best to keep individual SSDs and such on the other integrated SATA ports. 6Gbps SATA ports (grey) in the case of the Z820/840 workstations.

The same can apply to other PCIe SAS controllers in the system as well.
 
Jeff again thank you for the input. It is possible that I have narrowed down the problem but until I have backed up everything from the raid I won't know. The raid was originally used on a 32 bit system and it would appear that I need to reformat the drives in order for it to work on the Z840's 64 bits. Am looking at another 24 hrs backing up before I can test. Will definitely try moving things around if it is still not working.
 
The bit-ness of the operating system has nothing to do with it, as that has no bearing on the drive formatting itself and none of that differs between the OS versions. However, the partition mapping or drive volume arrangement and header information can play a role. If the RAID was ever partitioned as a primary and/ or active partition, it may be registering as a valid boot volume for your system. Even if there are no proper bootable partitions and OS's installed on it. This could be triggering the issue. So, while technically different at the root level, it's semantically the same issue as what you're hypothesizing. This could be the problem. And would definitely be something to try once all your data is backed up and you can re-partition and format the RAID. Be sure to completely wipe the RAID volume so you can set up a new partition map, not just a re-format.

This is one of those little problems that pops up every now and then where there could be a number of possible causes. Sometimes they take a while to troubleshoot just out of inconvenience or lack of time. Sometimes you just have to 'shoot it in the head' and wipe everything, re-partition, re-format, etc.. and then it will probably just work and you may never identify the actual cause. ;) Hopefully when you get around to doing it, it will fix the problem.

If the boot menu / boot order on the system isn't addressing the issue, it could be that the RAID controller here -- which is apparently a PCIe card and not the onboard LSI SAS host -- is ignoring that BIOS segment and trying to interject into the boot process. Maybe because it's an older controller and just operating a bit differently. Does this LSI controller have it's own BIOS management tool and options to configure or enable/ disable it as a boot device?
 
Jeff am away from the computer for next few days but will report back once I'm home. Thanks again for your time.
 
Hi Michael, Charlie and and Jeff


The problem it is now mainly solved. As you will recall the Z840 kept trying to boot from the raid. With much fiddling this problem then transformed into the drive being recognised in windows but only showing one of the physical internal drives of the raid. It showed as being 930 Gb rather than 16Tb. As far as I can remember this was dependent on which connection on the raid I used to plug the SAS cable into. I am using the inbuilt SAS port and LSI controller that comes with the computer rather than a PCIe card.


I believe the main problem was that the raid was formatted as MBR (Master Boot Record) and windows 7 needed it to be GPT (GUID Partition Table). Not sure if all of the following steps were completely necessary but the result is a drive that nearly works as it should.


I backed up all of the data from the VideoRaid SR and then deleted the volume within the Avid browser page. Before rebuilding the volume I ran a script (supplied by an avid reseller) on the drive and then rebuilt it. I then went back into windows and reformatted the drive as GPT.


Everything is now working correctly, the Z840 boots from the internal drive and the raid shows up as being the correct size, I can read and write data to it however although the write speed is about how I remember it (about 590 Mbs) the read speed seems slow (390 Mbs). I did have both the read and write speed running at about 600 Mbs on my old HP XW8600.


I am hoping that I will get some more help from Avid and the reseller to speed this up but I am not holding my breath. All of the Avid technicians in England who would have been familiar with this drive have now left and it has also been EOLed. Avid have published that they will officially support the raid until the end of March next year.


Michael if you would like I can talk to you or Charlie about the steps I have taken and supply you with the avid documentation to resolve the problem but it would also be great if you were able to do a speed test of your drive and let me know the results. Jeff I wonder if you have any advice as to how I can speed up the drive, do you think using a third party controller would help, do you think the speed seems slow, and are there any settings that you think I should look at? I know you are probably unfamiliar with this exact drive, I am just wondering if my experience seems familiar and whether you might have any strategies to help.


Will report back as the situation develops.
 
Hey guys, reviving thread as I'm in the market for a HP Z840 or Z820 system. Wondering if this last year things have changed, or is there a better option out there?
 
I think your question is more geared toward what app are you using to edit and render your footage. Are you working with 4K,5K 6K and have plans to move up to 8K. The higher res footage the more power is needed. My Z840 will do at great job with 4K & 5K but that's my max.I don't know if you need all of that since red has moved to prores files.
 
Aaron-

Keeping my RED Epic Dragon for a while. I don't work on PRO RES; prefer to work native *.R3D files via Premiere. I use an avg of 3 plugins per file, some are more cpu intensive than others (Neat Video). I have an external 40TB drive with PCIE card so that won't be a bottleneck.


Aaron michaels said:
I think your question is more geared toward what app are you using to edit and render your footage. Are you working with 4K,5K 6K and have plans to move up to 8K. The higher res footage the more power is needed. My Z840 will do at great job with 4K & 5K but that's my max.I don't know if you need all of that since red has moved to prores files.
Click to expand...
 
Tom Hanmer said:
Hi Michael, Charlie and and JeffThe problem it is now mainly solved. As you will recall the Z840 kept trying to boot from the raid. With much fiddling this problem then transformed into the drive being recognised in windows but only showing one of the physical internal drives of the raid. It showed as being 930 Gb rather than 16Tb. As far as I can remember this was dependent on which connection on the raid I used to plug the SAS cable into. I am using the inbuilt SAS port and LSI controller that comes with the computer rather than a PCIe card.
Click to expand...
Hey Tom - sorry to drag this thread up from the grave - but i just moved from a z800 to z840, and im also running a videoraid SR. Mine was already formatted GPT - so i didnt have that problem - but im getting *horrible* performance. like 40-80MB/s. It starts off fast then drops like a rock.Weird thing is - if i play around with the system, working, toggling settings - sometimes something just flips (havent figured out what) - and it then magically works at full speed again, until the next reboot.Did you have any performance issues like this? What cards do you have in the unit and what slots are they in?
 
Seems like you can get a used HP Z820 for under $2,000. Will this machine be enough muscle for 4k Resolve work?

2x E5-2680

128GB

Quadro K5000 4gb

Windows 7. Isn't Windows 10 the way to go?
 
i have the same proc's ina z820, 96g, SAS array and a 1080, gradeing a feature in a UHD timelie today with no drama

source is mainly AlexMini on this show, btu i jsut shipped another feature from Drsgon sources with no issues

i source cache and grade in ACES for everything

k5000 is pretty under-powered in 2017, i got the 1080 before the 1080ti was avb, i'd go with the ti today

and get lots of fast disks
 
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