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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How many of you are not planning to upgrade to Dragon ?

How many of you are not planning to upgrade to Dragon ?

  • Upgrade to Scarlet Dragon.

    Votes: 21 21.0%

  • Upgrade to Epic Dragon.

    Votes: 18 18.0%

  • Upgrade to Epic MX.

    Votes: 20 20.0%

  • Keep shooting with Scarlet MX.

    Votes: 28 28.0%

  • Sell Scarlet MX & get other camera.

    Votes: 13 13.0%
  • Total voters
    100
Well, I'll say this as I've already made the leap to Epic Dragon.

I miss my trusty Scarlet Mysterium-X some days. Fond memories, lots of love, some great images produced. Traveled around with me. More importantly it allowed me to build up my business and general kit because it kept me busy shooting.

However, since I've moved to Dragon I haven't shot anything professionally on Mysterium-X in some time. I planned for it for some time to make the "double jump" to Epic MX then Epic Dragon, which was a healthy chunk of change, but since Red talked about Dragon for a long while prior to it's release I started working to secure funds.

Why am I only shooting Dragon? For me it's about the resolution, dynamic range, vastly superior IR cutting, and lately what I've been feeling is the most important; color. For me Dragon is an improvement in almost every way. Nearly ever experience Mysterium-X shooter I know has seen and said the same thing too. So I don't feel totally crazy :)

If I was started from square one today without a body I'd buy a Scarlet Dragon. However, my path was Scarlet MX -> Epic MX -> Epic Dragon. Beyond what I mentioned above, the larger 6K sensor size and higher frame rates is wonderful.
 
Epic MX for me. Considering how I love my Scarlet I know Epic MX will be enough for me for a while but def planning on ultimately having a Dragon.
 
Phil, if one changes to 6K, then aren't S35 lenses not usable? at what resolution would they be usable in a Dragon sensor? this seems to be stopping me for some reason to make the leap
 
Enrique Blein said:
Phil, if one changes to 6K, then aren't S35 lenses not usable? at what resolution would they be usable in a Dragon sensor? this seems to be stopping me for some reason to make the leap
Click to expand...

Yes and no. It really depends on the lens. I went through a few marathon sessions of testing lens coverage here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103766-Dragon-Lens-Coverage-Information

You'll see for formats like 6K HD and 6K WS many lenses do just fine. For 6K FF and 2:1 it's the wides (25mm and wider) than typically have coverage issues.

Since you can slap nearly any lens on a DSMC body via the various lens mounts that are currently available there's a lot of options. Canon CN-E, Zeiss CP.2, and Schneider Xenon FF-Primes are all designed to cover FF35 for instance.

However, what's notable and important is 5K FF is approximately S35 3-perf these days and you can now shoot 5K for a 4K finish within the optimally designed coverage area for most Super 35mm cinema lenses.

I like 6K a whole lot as I've been a rather big fan of larger formats like VistaVision for many years. Dragon gets me about half way there from Super 35mm and I shoot often at 6K, 5.5K, and 5K with it. Just depends on what I'm up to.
 
No upgrades for me. all the side by sides with epic dragon 6k just hit the law of dimensioning returns... yes its better... to me is it enough to warrant9500 - 19000 upgrade price... not a chance. Thats not to say as a director I may not have a dragon on my set here and there as a rental. RED did a damn fine job with the MX and it still is a world class image capture machine.
 
Ryan Hamblin said:
No upgrades for me. all the side by sides with epic dragon 6k just hit the law of dimensioning returns... yes its better... to me is it enough to warrant9500 - 19000 upgrade price... not a chance. Thats not to say as a director I may not have a dragon on my set here and there as a rental. RED did a damn fine job with the MX and it still is a world class image capture machine.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.
 
after shooing with dragon a few times i'm sold but i don't think the scarlet dragon is going to hire well, be fine for my own projects.

i'm just amazed how many people i know who own epic dragons, Dp's, production companies, KIDS!!!! - i would say far to many people who think they will make their money back through hiring in an over saturated market, Not only that
Dragons new today what about tomorrow? a business plan that relays on technology standing still is doomed from the start.
The bottom is about to fall out in a big way, you only have to look on this forum, how many epic dragon kits are up for hire.




I still want a carbon epic dragon though:)
 
i like my dragon, but i want an arri next.. i wanna own both
 
I started with a Scarlet to film some medical material and support my little side business. I then upgraded to Epic as things took off, have left NHS and now setting up my own little boutique place here in North of Scotland. I now have my Dragon and love it, love the extra resolution for stills and love the colour. Looking forward to getting the OLPF options as i can really do with the low light option, especially as most of my work is lower budget with little lighting, and Scotland sucks for good natural lighting at times :)

Having said that i took the skin tone OLPF and filmed at the SECC in Glasgow earlier this year and had no problem, it was a dream to use, and we got some amazing images and footage.
So, i am happy to have spent the cash on Dragon and the RRX at the same time ( Although have issues with it with Nuke and Nuke Studio Beta).

Andrew.
 
Even though the difference might seem slim. When I got our dragon early this year with lowlight olpf I was really blown away. All those places, where I done test before, our office in low tingsten light, dark street outside, and other places with just not enough light.... well the lowlight olpf just made these places all of a sudden just gave me super nice images with perfect looking texture. When I shot the same with the MX I had problems with the sensor floor, it kind of cut to noise blacks. low light olpf just smooths out into black even when the backround is pitch black it looks just superb... in a, hate to say it, alexa kind of way, but even better. Then I had a project where the lowlight olpf made a huge mess with olpf flairs all over the place. I was not attending the shoot I think it could have been prevented but it for sure made me a rental client shorter. So I upgraded to highlight olpf (or as it was called olpf2) then not knowing it took 1,3 stops of light. And when I got it I run out on the street in broad daylight and shot some tests and yes the highlight protection shit just got me amazed, but then shortly after I realized why... well it takes what it gives in the high end in the low end. So yes it was a bit of a bummer but still it made mad good looking and perfect colors in good light. But I still miss the lowlight olpf.... Now our camera is no it's way over to red to get the swap thing and I think I will use the new lowlight olpf for 95% of the time and only put the skintone one on when we shoot studio fashion stuff when colors is really what matters and light is 100% controled. But to me it's pretty clear, at least acording to my findings, that Dragon becomes what it was promised to be when the swapable olpf is there and the new lowlight olpf looks smashing then we have the 2000iso base and superb black nice texture and all the other things and we can swap to other olpfs when wanted, personally I think that will not be that often. So to me it's like forget what you seen of dragon so far, as the only one here that has some experience with it, as it should be, is Phil. So I think if you consider updating, do not look to much at the tests you have seen exept for the low light tests that phil did with the new lowlight olpf, as to me thats where the candy is. And from testing the previous lowlight olpf on dragon you kind of have to be there to understand how good it is, looking a nice image that somebody else shot does not say much, but when you stand in the dark and aim the camera somplace and swipe the iso up to 6500 iso and you look over the shoulder to a big screen and realize it all looks splendid thats when you know... that going back from dragon is not an option :)

Here is my 6500iso experience... first person :)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/107237384@N04/12546637984/sizes/o/
 
I'm not upgrading any time soon so I have not been following the OLPF variants very closely. This quote really helps me to get up to speed on the subject. I trust Bjorn's opinion. Thanks.

When I do finally upgrade I will likely move up to Epic Dragon directly and not modify Scarlet.

Björn Benckert said:
Even though the difference might seem slim. When I got our dragon early this year with lowlight olpf I was really blown away. All those places, where I done test before, our office in low tingsten light, dark street outside, and other places with just not enough light.... well the lowlight olpf just made these places all of a sudden just gave me super nice images with perfect looking texture. When I shot the same with the MX I had problems with the sensor floor, it kind of cut to noise blacks. low light olpf just smooths out into black even when the backround is pitch black it looks just superb... in a, hate to say it, alexa kind of way, but even better. Then I had a project where the lowlight olpf made a huge mess with olpf flairs all over the place. I was not attending the shoot I think it could have been prevented but it for sure made me a rental client shorter. So I upgraded to highlight olpf (or as it was called olpf2) then not knowing it took 1,3 stops of light. And when I got it I run out on the street in broad daylight and shot some tests and yes the highlight protection shit just got me amazed, but then shortly after I realized why... well it takes what it gives in the high end in the low end. So yes it was a bit of a bummer but still it made mad good looking and perfect colors in good light. But I still miss the lowlight olpf.... Now our camera is no it's way over to red to get the swap thing and I think I will use the new lowlight olpf for 95% of the time and only put the skintone one on when we shoot studio fashion stuff when colors is really what matters and light is 100% controled. But to me it's pretty clear, at least acording to my findings, that Dragon becomes what it was promised to be when the swapable olpf is there and the new lowlight olpf looks smashing then we have the 2000iso base and superb black nice texture and all the other things and we can swap to other olpfs when wanted, personally I think that will not be that often. So to me it's like forget what you seen of dragon so far, as the only one here that has some experience with it, as it should be, is Phil. So I think if you consider updating, do not look to much at the tests you have seen exept for the low light tests that phil did with the new lowlight olpf, as to me thats where the candy is. And from testing the previous lowlight olpf on dragon you kind of have to be there to understand how good it is, looking a nice image that somebody else shot does not say much, but when you stand in the dark and aim the camera somplace and swipe the iso up to 6500 iso and you look over the shoulder to a big screen and realize it all looks splendid thats when you know... that going back from dragon is not an option :)

Here is my 6500iso experience... first person :)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/107237384@N04/12546637984/sizes/o/
Click to expand...
 
As filmmaking/shooting isn't my full-time job, I'm yet to truly get to play with/break-in my scarlet. My progression will be from Scarlet to Epic. By the time I'm ready to make the leap to Dragon, they could have something new on the way so not sure on the final step. I plan on putting it to better use once I finish grad school and have more free time. In the meantime I'll keep piecing out my kit though.
 
How does MX 5k compare to 5k dragon in term of sharpness? I guess i will upgrade to scarlet dragon. The future of MX is too uncertain, I have the feeling it will not last long. We don't know how long will the epicx to dragon upgrade last. I'm just wondering if 7:1 or 8:1 are good enough in term of compression with dragon.
 
What happens with going Scarlet-X to Epic-Dragon *after* Dec.1st? Does it go up to $25k (which is *more* than the price of a new Epic-Dragon brain)? I'm starting to think this stuff wasn't thoroughly thought through on the Scarlet side.

Food for thought: $9500 can net your company a DJI Ronin (with 4k SLR that you could balance and keep on the gimbal), plus a GoPro4 with Phantom2/Gimbal, and a decent amount of support/media/batteries for those items to keep you shootable all day. Don't get me wrong, they'd be baked 4k, BUT I'm inclined to believe that you'd have a much easier time selling any client on a Smooth 4k Gimbal package and 4k Aerial package along with your Scarlet-X package, than you would on *just* a single Scarlet-Dragon package. Hell, at $12,500, you could likely get a 2nd Scarlet-X brain to keep on the Ronin, PLUS the GoPro4 with Phantom2/Gimbal... If you bought that stuff used, you'd probably be able to get a Sony A7s to keep in your back pocket for low-light/full-frame shooting as well... I dunno... In retrospect, I think the best way to go was to upgrade to Epic-X immediately after it was announced, and if you haven't done that by now, you may as well wait for the prices to bottom out on MX cameras.
 
Last edited:
sam karr said:
How does MX 5k compare to 5k dragon in term of sharpness? I guess i will upgrade to scarlet dragon. The future of MX is too uncertain, I have the feeling it will not last long. We don't know how long will the epicx to dragon upgrade last. I'm just wondering if 7:1 or 8:1 are good enough in term of compression with dragon.
Click to expand...

The future of MX as in?

Do you mean how long the MX as a camera/tool will last?

Were still using Sony BetaSP/CAM along with XDCAM here.

They dont compete in terms of image with the RED ONE MX at work but do compete with use depending on projects.

My personal Scarlet will hold for a long time and honestly I dont see a lot of REDs in my part of the world so Im doing fine :)

Now if someone offered me a free upgrade to a DRAGON then yes Ill switch ;)
 
Eric Santiago said:
The future of MX as in?

Do you mean how long the MX as a camera/tool will last?

Were still using Sony BetaSP/CAM along with XDCAM here.

They dont compete in terms of image with the RED ONE MX at work but do compete with use depending on projects.

My personal Scarlet will hold for a long time and honestly I dont see a lot of REDs in my part of the world so Im doing fine :)

Now if someone offered me a free upgrade to a DRAGON then yes Ill switch ;)
Click to expand...

No, I mean as a product regarding upgrades, updates, compatibility, etc.
 
sam karr said:
No, I mean as a product regarding upgrades, updates, compatibility, etc.
Click to expand...


Aaah yes dont we all wish we knew :)

If we did, it would be a post in RECON stating that we have till "insert date here" to pay for it...I hope :)
 
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