How did Claudio Miranda's test go?

[Manfred Lopez]

BTW I have not heard of the red dot flare problem being fixed.

Really? This is interesting. I thought somebody else just said that it was fixed. Sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when you get conflicting information. So that is why I turn to people like Claudio who's reputations I know and see what they have to say.

Look at the price difference all of these others start at the $100,000 range for a complete camera without lenses. You get what you pay for and what we are getting for $17,500 is very good.

This is very refreshing to hear. Kinda brings this whole thing down to earth a bit. Thanks.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

I don't know exactly but...

Try to shoot SD 4:4:4 and then blow up to 2K or 4K.
Or do a simple test with DSLR.
Shoot resolution about HD size and then blow up to 4K.
Just a have a look.
And that's about shooting with RED in 4K.

I hear you, but I have long ago learned that resolution is actually not that important when it comes to the 'perceived awsomness' of an image. But dynamic range IS. I don't know the exact reasons for all this, but this is why I am obsessing over dynamic range and image senzor size (for focal length reasons and not resolution) instead of resolution.

 

[Jannard]

I hear you, but I have long ago learned that resolution is actually not that important when it comes to the 'perceived awsomness' of an image. But dynamic range IS. I don't know the exact reasons for all this, but this is why I am obsessing over dynamic range and image senzor size (for focal length reasons and not resolution) instead of resolution.

The question you need to ask is "how much difference was there in dynamic range between the F23 and Original RED ONE". Then, a month from now, you can re-ask the same question.

Jim

 

[Finner]

'perceived awsomness'

Now you are getting all high on your horse with your big lingo.

 

[Jannard]

I have not seen or heard of one red camera that the FFD was correctly collimated from factory.

Take the number of problems you have heard about, subtract that from 125 (including named cameras) and you will have your answer. About 20 have had collimation issues that we know of. Most of those were just not set up properly. That means 105 have had no issues. But 20 is way too many. That is why we built the new mount.

Jim

 

[I Bloom]

I am OK that our $17,500 camera, with known issues that are now addressed, competes favorably with a $250K camera. I am keen to see the same test with our new cameras.

Jim

I think a direct comparison is like a boxing match where one contender has a baseball bat.

I don't think I'm ever going to use an F23 because of the outragious cost, so I want to know as much as possible about Red so that I know exactly how to use it.

One thing I'm trying to understand, is how sharp we should expect the image to be at 4K. I was demoing Redcine with my footage for a post house yesterday, and they commented that the footage looked beautiful, but anytime we saw it Full res high 1:1, I cringed because the comment was "It looks soft", even at maximum sharpening. Not something you wan't to here about your dailies. I haven't been able to determine if this is the lenses I'm using, or if I should expect it to look that way, in part because I haven't had the ability to do as many tests as I should. Is this something I'm doing wrong or something inherent in the camera? And does the new configuration affect anything sharpness wise?

Please understand Jim, that I'm not trying to dog on Red when I bring this up. I really would like to have a better understanding so that I can improve my work, and speak knowledgeably to the people I'm working for.

Ian

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Really? So that is why I turn to people like Claudio who's reputations I know and see what they have to say.

This is very refreshing to hear. Kinda brings this whole thing down to earth a bit. Thanks.

For me Soderbergh has the biggest reputations here.

Terribly sorry for Claudio and the others...please, without any bad thoughts and degradation,

but Mr. Soderbergh is a real value for me here.

He is Academy Award Winner Director and Cannes Palme d'Or Winner Director/Cinematographer/Editor, etc...

Does any one else here want more authority with doing films with RED now?

Just my 2 cents!

 

[Manfred Lopez]

The question you need to ask is "how much difference was there in dynamic range between the F23 and Original RED ONE". Then, a month from now, you can re-ask the same question.

Jim

For now, enough of a difference where in one shot I can see an outline of a building in the background while in the other I must really squint. I will of course love to see the new results in a month, but for now I feel it would undermine Claudio's test not to talk about it. Or should we all keep quiet until next month?



RED:

F23:

 

[Finner]

Take the number of problems you have heard about, subtract that from 125 (including named cameras) and you will have your answer. About 20 have had collimation issues that we know of. Most of those were just not set up properly. That means 105 have had no issues. But 20 is way too many. That is why we built the new mount.

Jim

I did not mean to sound overly harsh with my statement. It's just after I got burned I e-mailed a bunch of owners and not one of them said their collimation was set right from factory. Stuff happens, oh well. Thing is you guys have gone well above to fix it and others and I appreciate it. I just am hopeing the new mount is as bomb proof as advertised.

 

[Casey Green]

Yes, it's too bad Claudio did not have the latest Camera to test with. He did however put in his report that these issues were being addressed and that he would do other tests in the coming months when they are available.

I think the flare pattern shown is unfortunate, since this problem is supposedly fixed already, however, you can only do so much and there are Cameras in the field right now that may exhibit this problem until they are swapped out. So it is valuable information for people.

I would have liked to see the test done with a finished new model Camera, and many of the other existing tests would be great to have been done with them as well, such as LART, but you have to work with what you have at the present time, which is an amazing Camera that is still in beta and about to be upgraded dramatically.

As much as I did not like to see that image of the flare pattern, I think it will only help in the long run, when people can see the difference compared to the new cameras.

Finner was on the right track with what he was saying, in that we should keep in mind that RED is competing with $100,000 - $250,000+ camera systems, but I don't necessarily agree with the notion that we can't expect it to outperform them for this reason or that you get what you pay for and what we have at this price is outstanding for the price.

...but then again, sometimes people say things to get others motivated to prove them wrong.

I think with this still being very early on in the RED ONEs life, it still has much room to grow, and in many tests RED has already gone above and beyond the competition.

 

[Jannard]

Claudio's opinion is completely valid and important... I think if you read the report and take it is context, it is very accurate. We just need him to test a new camera.

Soderbergh has not had one issue with his older mounts. Resolution has never been a problem, just as with most other tests and shoots. The "footage" that Claudio eluded to is a compilation from many RED shoots done at Plastercity. I think they have their own take on RED and we should hear from them shortly.

One test doesn't really tell you everything. Lots of shooting, under a myriad of conditions, will tell all of us a lot more.

Jim

 

[David Mullen ASC]

What is your point, Sanjin? Claudio's opinion on cinematography issues must be less reliable than Soderberg's because Soderberg is more famous???

What about the technical team at RED? They are less famous than Claudio, so by your logic, they must know less than he does about cinematography.

The fact that Soderberg is a famous cinematographer-director does not mean he is the ultimate authority on technical matters related to cinematography. How many Oscars and Cannes awards a director racks up is not a measure of their technical knowledge.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

For me Soderbergh has the biggest reputations here.

Terribly sorry for Claudio and the others...please, without any bad thoughts and degradation,

I have tremendous respect for Soderbergh as a director. But even he has been known to place convenience over technical perfection in his images (Full Frontal). But Claudio is all about the image. In the end I guess we need more opinions (until we can get a camera to test ourselves that is :biggrin: ).

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Wow here everything goes very fast with this online conversation.

Jim, about darkness in the picture I've got it.

Hope all others too.

About a dynamic range and etc.. I learned from the Swedish test here a lot even without RED in my hands that you can "fine tune" a lot.

Just needs a time to LEARN.

And could be good to think about afeature to have EXPOSURE snap shot enabled

via a tethered connection or even SD card that I saw RED has too,

just for people who want to work more with precise tuning of the picture.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

Sheesh Sanjin,

I'm just glad that Jim takes Claudio's experiences (and those of others out there in the field) more serious than you do.

The whole point of these tests is to find out where Red excels, and where it's lacking. What's great about Jim is that (even though it may hurt a bit - I can only imagine having to acknowledge weak spots or oversights in your 'baby') he takes these tests very seriously.

That's why development is constantly being pushed. I'm sure that tests such as Claudio's make Jim want to improve this camera. It's why the first 100 are being replaced. Because Jim (and the team!) did very well, but these direct comparisons in combination with realworld experiences with the first batch make him want to do better.

I'm just saying, although some of the people here won't tolerate any criticism (and are indeed in some state of denial) I'm thrilled that Jim DOES want to hear about it and takes action where possible. Class act, Jim.

Bar3nd

 

[Casey Green]

For me Soderbergh has the biggest reputations here.

Terribly sorry for Claudio and the others...please, without any bad thoughts and degradation,

but Mr. Soderbergh is a real value for me here.

He is Academy Award Winner Director and Cannes Palme d'Or Winner Director/Cinematographer/Editor, etc...

Does any one else here want more authority with doing films with RED now?

Just my 2 cents!

?????

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

What is your point, Sanjin? Claudio's opinion on cinematography issues must be less reliable than Soderberg's because Soderberg is more famous???

David, what ever you think about Soderberg and his famousness but he BOOKED his next project with RED (a full RED feature film).

What about the technical team at RED? They are less famous than Claudio, so by your logic, they must know less than he does about cinematography.

David, Soderbergh is not in any competition here, not with RED Team nor even with Claudio Miranda.

He is by his own.

He is a famous and somebody that has a full respect from all parts of the INDUSTRY and beyond in USA and abroad (worldwide, global as you like it).

The fact that Soderberg is a famous cinematographer-director does not mean he is the ultimate authority on technical matters related to cinematography. How many Oscars and Cannes awards a director racks up is not a measure of their technical knowledge.

David, yeahh, what can I say now?

Nobody is having any authority in cinematography.

But Mr. Soderbergh did two features with RED and will do again his own next project with RED.

He did not place any doubts about RED (dynamic range, other issues, etc.) like some of other guys here.

He is able to see even BEYOND a present reality.

And do not forget that Soderbergh shot his last own feature before RED with Sony F900 Cinealta (BUBBLE).

That it is about power of CHARISMA that Sodebergh has.

He can take a risk with RED and leads you/us to the new horizons that RED will offer to all of you/us.

He can SHOW his result (with RED) very soon in a theater release, DVD, HD DVD etc...

That is what I mean when talk about Soderbergh but not (a cheap) taking about a fact that

he is JUST a famous or NOT ENOUGH CRITIC(al) to RED.

And Soderbergh already said very clear:

"For me,this is Year Zero: I feel I could call

up Film on the phone and say,

'I've met someone'"

So if other guys met F900, F23, F35, Genesis, D20, FILM, etc.. I do not care at all.

I wanted this for years (something like RED) and I do believe in RED and RED Team

that can deal and handle all challenges of RED development to finish this project to

the POSSIBLE perfection for the price of US $ 17.500.

 

[Adrian T.]

Come on, Sanjin. Get a good bottle of RED wine and leave us alone here.

 

[Jan Reiff]

i only know the f23. it s a fantastic, very expensive camera. you can create great results for theatres, commercials.
i did not shoot with red, but well, i will have one in 3 month (or 4? doesn´t matter)...
but i have to say, i am watching all these tests, and i don´t see really a difference between red and the other high end cams (only in the prize, and here i have to thank jim and his team so very much). often i see the best images are actually from red. i think they play on the same level. some results are good, some bad (like the others - i didn´t like miami vice, but zodiac was awesome, so there is no final judgement about the digital cams possible in my opinion)
maybe i´am more interested in a good script than in technical aspects, that only professionals can see. every camera has its pros and contras, story and drama will define the quality of your movie (and the compositing and lightning and and...) and what i have seen from red, and now with this awesome improvements of the new series, the red - cam will be a perfect tool to narrate good stories in great quality. the first to be asked for the perfect image should be: where is the drama of my story. directing, emotion, acting... and not, where is my hundred pixel more or less...
red is on the very right way, because the team is able to listen to the user, the team is loving their own product. and this is the most important thing for me to buy the camera.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

He is able to see even BEYOND a present reality.

I almost peed my pants. Why would anyone want to shoot using a camera for what it will be in the future?

I'm sure Soderberg shoots Red because of what it delivers right now - not next week, next month or next year.

Jim on the other hand is the man that sees beyond a present reality. And is stimulated to do so partly because of tests like Claudio's.

Anyway, this thread has turned into a pile of nonsense. I'm out.