How did Claudio Miranda's test go?

[Adrian T.]

[...]i have to thank jum and his team [...]

Jim is the name, not Jum. :clown2:

*ducks*

edit: ok, you fixed it already.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You're the one bringing up the ridiculous comparison between Claudio Miranda and Soderberg, which is apples and oranges at best. I don't see the reason to even make the comparison -- it's not like we're comparing a posted Soderberg test to a posted Claudio Miranda test where they got different results.

Soderberg's decision to use the RED or the F900 on "Bubble" tells us nothing about dynamic range other than it was acceptable for his particular project.

By your logic, because he used the Canon XL1 on "Full Frontal" the resolution, dynamic range, color, compression, et al. of that camera is good enough for any filmmaker -- afterall, it was good enough for Soderberg! Or the F900 on "Bubble" -- he trusted that camera for that movie, so I guess the image problems with the F900 are imaginary. We don't need better quality than the F900 because Soderberg used it on "Bubble" so it must be good enough for everyone, Claudio included. I don't see why we should even test these cameras, we should just shoot whatever camera Soderberg is using at the time. I mean, jeez, if he shoots his next movie on Super-16, does that mean now that Super-16 is better than 35mm or the RED?

There's no reason to be pitting Claudio's opinion against Soderberg. I doubt even Soderberg would want you to do that!

Anyone who follows Soderberg's career closely can see that he likes to experiment with different formats -- that doesn't mean that the particular format he picks is the height of technology, only to be bumped by the next format he picks. He shot his second RED movie on anamorphic lenses -- does that mean that Soderberg has decided that spherical lenses aren't good enough anymore? That anamorphic lenses are "better"?

 

[Adrian T.]

You're the one bringing up the ridiculous comparison between Claudio Miranda and Soderberg, which is apples and oranges at best. I don't see the reason to even make the comparison -- it's not like we're comparing a posted Soderberg test to a posted Claudio Miranda test where they got different results.

Soderberg's decision to use the RED or the F900 on "Bubble" tells us nothing about dynamic range other than it was acceptable for his particular project.

By your logic, because he used the Canon XL1 on "Full Frontal" the resolution, dynamic range, color, compression, et al. of that camera is good enough for any filmmaker -- afterall, it was good enough for Soderberg! Or the F900 on "Bubble" -- he trusted that camera for that movie, so I guess the image problems with the F900 are imaginary. We don't need better quality than the F900 because Soderberg used it on "Bubble" so it must be good enough for everyone, Claudio included. I don't see why we should even test these cameras, we should just shoot whatever camera Soderberg is using at the time. I mean, jeez, if he shoots his next movie on Super-16, does that mean now that Super-16 is better than 35mm or the RED?

There's no reason to be pitting Claudio's opinion against Soderberg. I doubt even Soderberg would want you to do that!

Relax, David. Sanjin is a known troublemaker. Just ignore some of his posts. :wink:

 

[Casey Green]

I agree - Sanjin has been temporarily banned at times for his behavior. Please, David, do not get too caught up in his remarks, ridiculous as they sometimes are.

After a quick look at his history, many times, he ends up stating at the end of an argument... "well, let's leave it to the experts." or someting similar. Also, he edits his initial posts many times, days after, which alters the meaning of the conversation.

Ignoring him seems to be the best route at this point, which is what I will be doing.

So, where were we?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I have a knee-jerk reaction against the cult of celebrityhood that affects even filmmaking, where the opinions of famous people are granted an excess amount of weight. Works fine for marketing purposes, but when it comes to evaluating technical data, I'd take, let's say, Graeme Nattress' opinion over Soderberg's... or any professional camera assistant's opinion on issues relating to a camera assistant's domain.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

David are you in competition with Soderbergh because he is also a director?

My Sodebergh to Miranda comparison was in a way that Soderbergh did not complain (in public) about RED, for sure he did his list of issues to the RED Team.

Simply it is about a PROPAGANDA.

Any PROPAGANDA has close relation to POLITICS.

David, I see your POLITICS here as confronted to RED and also to the DIRECTORS.

I read about your feelings to the director's opinion in some of your posts before.

I'm sorry about that.

If something is wrong with RED then the RED Team knows this perfect and they are paid for that.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I have a knee-jerk reaction against the cult of celebrityhood that affects even filmmaking, where the opinions of famous people are granted an excess amount of weight. Works fine for marketing purposes, but when it comes to evaluating technical data, I'd take, let's say, Graeme Nattress' opinion over Soderberg's... or any professional camera assistant's opinion on issues relating to a camera assistant's domain.

Sorry David but I can't talk with you in this way.

It looks for me like a Technocrats vs Intellectuals sort of discussion.

Even Technocrats vs Artists.

Sorry for other guys who complain about my posts but they do not have so much or anything valuable to say.

They are just taking a side.

That's very clear about all of them.

And is a group again.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Congratulations to Claudio.
Congratulations to Jim.

Now what about those taillights disapearing in the Red footage?
Is it a classic case of overexposure, or something weird going on in the red channel?

Emmanuel

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Thanks David

I'm obviously very biased about RED, but that's because the bits I've designed are designed to work they way I think about things. But remember, I used to shoot when I had time, and still shoot a lot of stills and the theory is tempered by reality, and by experience, and art too. All of these things have to come together to make a camera, and make it good, and after seeing some of the things I've seen shot on RED, I'm confident we've got a good camera that keeps on getting better.

Camera comparisons are never easy. Not least when you can't use identical lenses with identical apertures, and you're not producing the same size image with the same FOV. All they can do is add to the vast amount of data available, and you, the intelligent observer have to take all this information and knowledge and let it help and guide you to a better image.

Making the best possible image is not easy. It's never been easy, and if it were, where would the art be then? And you can't just rely on art, you've got to experiment, and apply science and mathematics (yes, ouch, you can't ignore them) and learn and keep learning, and keep shooting. That's why I never stop thinking of new ways to get better images from our sensor.

Graeme

 

[Graeme Nattress]

To answer Emmanuel, I don't know and can't answer without seeing the RAW data. At least with RED, we can analyse the RAW and see what was going on, knowing it's a record of what the sensor saw.

Graeme

 

[Ruairi Robinson]

Sorry for other guys who complain about my posts but they do not have so much or anything valuable to say.

/ignore

 

[David Mullen ASC]

My Sodebergh to Miranda comparison was in a way that Soderbergh did not complain (in public) about RED, for sure he did his list of issues to the RED Team.

Simply it is about a PROPAGANDA.

I don't have the same passion for propaganda that you seem to have. I'd prefer an open discussion.

Leave the propaganda to the marketing team at RED, unless you're angling for a job in that department.

Simply put, problems don't get solved if no one ever talks about them so you're ultimately doing RED more harm than good by attempting to silence any criticism in pursuit of this RED propaganda agenda. It's critical people like Claudio that push manufacturers to make better equipment.

Finding a black dot in the center of the sun in a test doesn't have to be a big political issue, it doesn't have to be about "technocrats vs. intellectuals" everytime someone points the RED camera into the sun and posts the results. Most of us would rather leave politics out of this and concentrate on learning how to use the camera and how it possibly could be improved.

 

[Jannard]

Everyone who has shot RED and given feedback is valuable. We have found issues and problems from Peter Jackson's "Crossing" movie (2 day shoot on 2 prototypes) to Soderbergh's 2 features shot on prototypes. The fact that Soderbergh didn't have one issue with our mount in 6 months of shooting didn't stop us from making a better one. Feedback from Steven and his AC were taken just as seriously as that from the "Wanted" shoot, PJ's tests, Claudio's test, our customer's experiences, our own experience, etc. The name on the suggestion doesn't matter. The information does.

We are only a couple of months in from shipping our 1st (not done) cameras and I have to say that, for a very small team, we are listening, changing, improving and advancing this project along at breakneck speed. I have said all along that we are not done... and probably will never be. What matters is that we are listening to ideas and feedback and making improvements while you sleep.

We have a great foundation for our platform. But in a few days, the platform will get elevated significantly. I want ALL our customers to feel like this is the best thing they have ever invested in (me included). You'll have to kill us to stop that from happening.

Jim

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I don't have the same passion for propaganda that you seem to have. I'd prefer an open discussion.

Leave the propaganda to the marketing team at RED, unless you're angling for a job in that department.

Simply put, problems don't get solved if no one ever talks about them so you're ultimately doing RED more harm than good by attempting to silence any criticism in pursuit of this RED propaganda agenda. It's critical people like Claudio that push manufacturers to make better equipment.

Finding a black dot in the center of the sun in a test doesn't have to be a big political issue, it doesn't have to be about "technocrats vs. intellectuals" everytime someone points the RED camera into the sun and posts the results. Most of us would rather leave politics out of this and concentrate on learning how to use the camera and how it possibly could be improved.

Open way (mostly) of doing things (thinking, complaining, criticizing, etc.,...) in this field of a PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT (a product desperately we wanted to have) is all new for us (worldwide).

And there are fights too.

Who is right and who is wrong we can get it when a product show up and improve the features.

And forums like this are also part of marketing and propaganda to the related products.

All is a part of the game.

By the way the sun black dot we had seen a long ago on this forum if I remember well.

It's not only about a silence and loudness.

It's about that similar feelings like if you would trust a "girl" you have met/got or not.

You can do a million complaints to this girl but that does not help.

It is something very fragile and gentle.

It needs a lot of understanding and patience.

It's about LOVE.

As Soderbergh clearly said that he met somebody.

SHE was RED ONE.

A femme fatale.

 

[chuck colburn]

I've been thru some new products from inception to release and I must say this whole RED camera thingybob is quite spectacular. The time frame is astounding and the size of the in house staff (from what I understand) is even more amazing. Where do you find such people and what do you do to them to make them perform like they do? lol

 

[Ruairi Robinson]

Open way (mostly) of doing things (thinking, complaining, criticizing, etc.,...) in this field of a PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT (a product desperately we wanted to have) is all new for us (worldwide).

And there are fights too.

Who is right and who is wrong we can get it when a product show up and improve the features.

And forums like this are also part of marketing and propaganda to the related products.

All is a part of the game.

By the way the sun black dot we had seen a long ago on this forum if I remember well.

It's not only about a silence and loudness.

It's about that similar feelings like if you would trust a "girl" you have met/got or not.

You can do a million complaints to this girl but that does not help.

It is something very fragile and gentle.

It needs a lot of understanding and patience.

It's about LOVE.

As Soderbergh clearly said that he met somebody.

SHE was RED ONE.

A femme fatale.

It just never ends. Jesus.

 

[redrum]

One thing I'm trying to understand, is how sharp we should expect the image to be at 4K.

Sharper than a "true" 2K, but not 4K's worth. It's a bayer sensor, and a bayer typically loses about 33% due to the OLPF, the anti-aliasing filter, and the demosaicing process. The sensor is 4K in black and white, but in color it's probably about 3K. For example, the little HV20 claims a 1920x1080 sensor but it isn't. It's a 3-megapixel sensor, but they're factoring in the res loss from the de-bayer process to deliver a legit 1920x1080.

Red's a little different in that the sensor is a tad larger than 4K (4.5K) so that offsets some res loss I'd bet. Losing 1/3 to the demosaic you should end up with about 3K worth of usable res. Which should still surpass anything else, including a 2K F23, and should still go toe to toe with a 4K Dalsa because the Dalsa's limited by the same type of things (anti-aliasing and single-sensor bayer pattern).

I haven't been able to determine if this is the lenses I'm using, or if I should expect it to look that way, in part because I haven't had the ability to do as many tests as I should.

Lenses could definitely be part of the problem, but a modern cine lens should eliminate that. Run on over to Abel and put your Red on Mitch Gross's test bench and shoot a Putora using some Master Primes. That'll tell you (and everyone else, when you post the pictures) what the true max res is. While you're at it, test the 2K windowed mode too. And go download some of the Dalsa sample frames, your stuff should be as sharp as theirs.

 

[Finner]

Ruairi

There is an easy way to deal with it. Just click on Sanjin's Avatar and then click on the add him to your ignore list. Then bingo all of his posts disapear. A lot of us wish reduser would just kick him off for good but for now I have found putting him on my ignore list as the best option.

 

[Ruairi Robinson]

Ruairi

There is an easy way to deal with it. Just click on Sanjin's Avatar and then click on the add him to your ignore list. Then bingo all of his posts disapear. A lot of us wish reduser would just kick him off for good but for now I have found putting him on my ignore list as the best option.

Yeah but then all the posts reacting to gibberish would sound like gibberish too...

and that's a LOT of gibberish...

 

[Jaime Vallés]

Thanks for posting the results, Claudio! Very interesting and enlightening. And it's great to hear that many of the issues are already being addressed by the folks at RED, so the next cameras should look even better. I look forward to seeing comparisons between the old and new versions of RED.

I love that my future camera is being compared favorably to the highest-end Sony CineAlta camera available!