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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How did Claudio Miranda's test go?

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Well, if he's used to recording the Viper uncompressed to S-Two digital mags, then what would be the REDCODE compression level to get to the same data rate for 12-bit RAW 4K Bayer? You figure that a Bayer image is already a 3:1 form of data compression, and 4K RGB would be 4 times the data of 2K RGB, so... what, a 2:1 REDCODE compression of the RED would bring things down to something similar what the Viper sends out uncompressed, if Claudio wanted to keep using S-Two? Maybe a few selectable compression rates would be a good idea, like 12:1, 6:1, 2:1, and uncompressed?
 
Thanks for testing Claudio...the more we understand about the beast and bring issues to the surface then the more likely RED works to solves them...Thanks RED.

Have a good holiday everyone.
 
redrum said:
It's called "wobble" and it plagues little consumer-cams, might not be such a big issue with Red because it's so heavy and isn't likely going to be put in the same scenarios.

No, fast pans will make images lean. The wobbly jello effect happens in vibration. No idea how much the Red might be affected by it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the terminology - google turned up a lot of good info. (You'll have to excuse my igorance in this case - I'm originally from VFX-land, and am used to getting my footage as scanned film plates!) Aside from the various threads on reduser, which can be a slog to sift through, IBloom gives a good overview here: http://www.redhax.net/wiki/Understanding_the_Rolling_Shutter_Artifacts

Another good primer here (with footage): http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

And alarmist and non-alarmist threads (with footage) here: http://www.ssontech.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=478
and here: http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007/05/hv20s-rolling-shutter.html

I think I'd have to disagree with you about why Red would be immune, however. It sounds to me like the only saving factor would be radically higher readout/reset speeds on the chip (higher w.r.t. the consumer cams you mention). No doubt the Mysterium is faster than a chip you'd find in a consumer-grade camera - but given its 60Hz rate... maybe not radically faster?

Perhaps larger video-heads than myself could answer: would these artifacts be lessened by shooting at 2K (thereby effectively doubling the speed at which the entire image is read/reset)?

I'd try this test myself, but tomorrow's the last day of our shoot, and I'm guessing they won't want to halt production for an hour or so while I run around shaking the camera violently and whirling it in circles.
 
meeotch said:
Perhaps larger video-heads than myself could answer: would these artifacts be lessened by shooting at 2K (thereby effectively doubling the speed at which the entire image is read/reset)?
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The readout speed might be quadrupled at 2K windowed, but maybe its doubled. I'm trying to devise and experiment using a strobe that could determine the exact readout period, similar to checking the timing belt on an engine.
 
Nice one, ibloom. Let me know if you'd like a hand with your tests - I'm in Manhattan. (Given the speeds involved, it seems like you'd want something along the lines of those LED shutter-speed testers you use with film cameras. But instead of a circle, maybe a grid, with one vertical "on" column that cycled from right->left at some known speed. Then just count the "steps" in your line when filmed with the Red. Easy to build, for someone who didn't drink away all their basic circuit design knowledge like I did. Wow, this is a long parenthetical.)

Oh, and thanks for posting the noise pics further up the thread. It really nicely illustrates the sort of thing you can see in some Red footage, the reason that it's more objectionable than just plain "noise", and the reason why variable compression / uncompressed output would likely be a first step to reducing the issue. (i.e. prior to noise reduction in post.)
 
IMO, 12:1 onboard compression is Red's main advantage.
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Totally subscribe that. What good is to have an affordable UHD image acquiring system if you can't pay the editing system?

Let them have their RAW port. I'm more than happy with REDCODE (though the option to slightly vary the bitrate is a very good thing).
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Well, if he's used to recording the Viper uncompressed to S-Two digital mags, then what would be the REDCODE compression level to get to the same data rate for 12-bit RAW 4K Bayer? You figure that a Bayer image is already a 3:1 form of data compression, and 4K RGB would be 4 times the data of 2K RGB, so... what, a 2:1 REDCODE compression of the RED would bring things down to something similar what the Viper sends out uncompressed, if Claudio wanted to keep using S-Two? Maybe a few selectable compression rates would be a good idea, like 12:1, 6:1, 2:1, and uncompressed?
Click to expand...

I second that, why not a "Daylight" compression and a "Night-Low light" lower compression.
This could improve the quality of Red footage at night wich is where I see the biggest difference to the F23.

Emmanuel
 
meeotch said:
Nice one, ibloom. Let me know if you'd like a hand with your tests - I'm in Manhattan. (Given the speeds involved, it seems like you'd want something along the lines of those LED shutter-speed testers you use with film cameras. But instead of a circle, maybe a grid, with one vertical "on" column that cycled from right->left at some known speed. Then just count the "steps" in your line when filmed with the Red. Easy to build, for someone who didn't drink away all their basic circuit design knowledge like I did. Wow, this is a long parenthetical.)

Oh, and thanks for posting the noise pics further up the thread. It really nicely illustrates the sort of thing you can see in some Red footage, the reason that it's more objectionable than just plain "noise", and the reason why variable compression / uncompressed output would likely be a first step to reducing the issue. (i.e. prior to noise reduction in post.)
Click to expand...

The readout period is an extremely short time. I think alternating Red and Green LED's might do the trick, assuming they have a very tight spectrum.

Regarding these noise comparisons, remember this is heavily amplified noise, in order for us to get an idea of the texture, in a normal image, the noise from all of these cameras is barely noticeable.

Just for comparison sake I did the same test with an HVX, I imported a capped frame through FCP and exported a TIFF with Quicktime conversion, then in photoshop I stretched it to 1280 width, cropped it and applied levels 0,1.0,7

HVX 720p DVCProHD:
582_1198256281.jpg

Redcode:
582_1198199631.jpg

Photoshop generated reference:
582_1198199790.jpg


I think by comparison, noise compressed by Redcode appears very pretty. Here's a nice desktop background: http://www.redhax.net/DesktopBackground.jpg

IBloom
 
This has become too political for my tastes. What I wanted was both parties to benefit and grow from these tests. Again both cameras offer a tremendous value to the industry. There are many shots the Red has an advantage over the F23 and visa versa. These tests are my own and it is my process on how I judge and how I choose to implement them in future jobs. This test only needs to satisfy myself. Everyone has their own tastes and needs to judge what is important for their task at hand.

Claudio
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That's too bad.

When he says "this has become too political" what does he mean? I mean, Jim has been very straightforward with him. Maybe Sony has said something?
 
Concrete said:
That's too bad.
When he says "this has become too political" what does he mean? I mean, Jim has been very straightforward with him. Maybe Sony has said something?
Click to expand...

My guess is that the way some people here at the forum responded to Claudio's observations is what made him pull the pages. He did the test for himself. He chose to share his findings with us and got bashed for it.
 
I don't think so. An overwhelimg majority of us have welcome and juciously commented the tests, even the people at RED.

And I really wouldn't say that Sanjin's poor behaviour could be described as a political issue. In fact, I don't think anyone here pays him too much attention at all.
 
I can't speak for Claudio, but we have talked and he is anxious to shoot a new camera as soon as we can get him one. Claudio is a very good guy, extremely talented, honest and fair.

Jim
 
Well, that is terrible...

I don't know why Claudio got upset and disspointed through the whole process, but from the get go, I got the impression he was a very easy going, relaxed kind of guy not really prone to explode at the smallest thing. So, whether from this side or "the other" something must have ticked him off enough to decide not to share with us any more. And when a proven professional, who works for productions that can afford WHATEVER they want, film, imax, whatever, decides to test RED, is not for financial reasons, it is simply for interest and passion for the medium. And his findings are an invaluable tool for us all who plan to use RED for our projects. Shunning him away, or contributing to it, is the absolute worst thing we could have done. And whether it was the comments of an isolated member or two, or whatever, guess what, the whole Reduser forum suffers as a result. How stupid of us really...

And by the way, Claudio is the closest thing to the "preferred" cinematographer of who is arguably the most perfectionist, technically demanding, madly obssesive about detail A-list director to be among Hollywood's most sought after. David Fincher, whether you like his work or not, is that rare bird that can afford to pick his work and make technical demands based on his artistic vision that most studios would deny anybody else, but he gets away with whatever he wants. And Claudio, as this man's collaborator, could have given us all so much insight into the world of digital cinema. But of course, the best we could manage was to scare him away. Great going!

One last thing, Claudio Miranda is in my opinion, FAR MORE knowledgeable about cinematography than Soderbergh will ever be, Oscars and Palme d' Ors aside. How many of us could afford to hire him to perform tests on the cmaera we intend to buy or have bought?
 
It was the attitude of some of the posters here that frustrated him -- the "politics" he was referring to is the attitude of "you can't say anything negative because RED is not just a camera, it's a way of life and you're attacking our way of life so I'm going to undercut your status so people won't listen to you".

That's too much nonsense to deal with when all you want to do is test some cameras and decide which one to use.

Claudio did thank me privately for standing up for him but the truth is that a talented and successful cinematographer like him shouldn't have to fight to get some respect on this forum. In the long term, this site needs more people like him.
 
There is a tendency toward RED moving from "scam to supercam" in less than a year's time. Truth is somewhere in between (closer to supercam I hope). But the RED ONE, with all its great attributes, is not perfect... yet :-) That's why it will "never be done". There will always be things that can be improved and Claudio's test pointed out many of them. We knew about most of them, many of which have been addressed in our new cameras.

It is all about presentation. "RED is a scam and stupid" doesn't work. "RED is perfect and if you say anything that points to a flaw... you are stupid." doesn't work either.

Claudio couldn't have been more fair, given the camera he had at the time, in his assessments. He had no agenda. Just what we like to see. Some are out to demonstrate that RED is a failure... we don't tolerate that. Nor will we support the masking of problems. I was the 1st to point out the over-heating issues Soderbergh had on day one of "Guerrilla". I posted the issue the same day of the shoot. We have been open in our celebrations and open in the flaws. All the flaws do is give us something to fix when we get up the next day.

We embrace tests like Claudio's. And I think he embraces our methodology of listening and fixing. Pretty easy stuff.

Jim
 
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