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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How about 4K 240FPS？

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Wang Bin

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As we know, most of the RED cameras can record 4K FF up to 120FPS.
Such as Epic Dragon，Raven，Scarlet-W，Epic-W and Weapon.

But these cameras have different max data rates:
Epic Dragon 200MB/s
Raven/Scarlet-W 140MB/s
Epic-W 275MB/s
Weapon 300MB/s

So the max redcodes of 4K 120FPS are not the same：
Epic Dragon 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 9：1
Raven/Scarlet-W 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 13：1
Epic-W 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 7：1
Weapon 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 6：1

If the Weapon camera can record 4K 120FPS @ REDCODE 6：1, it will also can record 4K 240FPS @ REDCODE 12：1 in theory，am I right？
 
The PhantomFlex 4K can do up to 1000fps. How much money do you have?

665263f5-793b-4019-b7fe-0d25de400650.jpg


http://www.phantomhighspeed.com/Products/TV-Motion-Picture-Media/Flex4K
 
Joel Voelker said:
It's a limitation of the sensor and the processing abilities of the hardware, not a write speed restriction.
Click to expand...

Thanks Joel，I don't think these before，and I don't know what's the limitation of the sensor. But I still think it‘s possible to get higher frame rate，the sensor and the processor of the Weapon are more powerful than Epic Dragon and other RED cameras. So if 240FPF@4K FF is too hard, maybe we can get 150FPS@4K FF on Weapon?

Marc Wielage said:
The PhantomFlex 4K can do up to 1000fps. How much money do you have?

665263f5-793b-4019-b7fe-0d25de400650.jpg


http://www.phantomhighspeed.com/Products/TV-Motion-Picture-Media/Flex4K
Click to expand...

Thanks Marc, I know Phantom is very expensive，but it’s not the same question. RED camera is awesome! I just wonder if RED cameras can be more powerful. I think it's possible. I don't understand the high-tech very well, so maybe I am wrong.
 
I genuinely thought we'd moved past the stage of telling a high-end camera company staffed with some world-class engineers their cameras should be able to record twice their specced framerates based on one particular paper spec.
 
Wang Bin said:
So the max redcodes of 4K 120FPS are not the same：
Epic Dragon 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 9：1
Raven/Scarlet-W 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 13：1
Epic-W 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 7：1
Weapon 4K 120FPS@ REDCODE 6：1
Click to expand...

REDCODE compression ratio has to do with internal ASICs (processing power) so changes between camera models. Frame rates are a limitation of the current sensor and is directly connected with the number of lines acquired. This is why you always get 120 FPS at 2160 lines and 150FPS at 1728, no matter the horizontal resolution set in camera.
 
Wang Bin said:
If the Weapon camera can record 4K 120FPS @ REDCODE 6：1, it will also can record 4K 240FPS @ REDCODE 12：1 in theory，am I right？
Click to expand...

Nope.

You are oversimplifying and by that interpreting data rates, processing power and sensor readout speed as one factor.
 
Ben Scott said:
I genuinely thought we'd moved past the stage of telling a high-end camera company staffed with some world-class engineers their cameras should be able to record twice their specced framerates based on one particular paper spec.
Click to expand...

Premature optimism? :)
 
Ben Scott said:
From me? Always...
Click to expand...


I thought Black Magic had attracted those folks over there with their much cheaper cameras, since for some reason people tend to want more features in less expensive gear, and expect more specialization in higher end gear. I guess there's always an oddball. :)
 
Wang Bin said:
I know Phantom is very expensive，but it’s not the same question. RED camera is awesome! I just wonder if RED cameras can be more powerful. I think it's possible. I don't understand the high-tech very well, so maybe I am wrong.
Click to expand...
There are always complications with size, weight, speed, complexity, and cost. If they could give you double the speeds for double the twice, would you pay it? This stuff is not simple to do; if it was, we'd have the equivalent of a Red camera in our smartphones.

From my perspective, I'm grateful and amazed that you can buy a very high-performance camera for about $40K. They were far more than $100,000 for at least 40 years. (Heck, I think standard-def color TV cameras were over $100,000 in the 1960s.) I think people need to be grateful for what they have, rather than wishing they had what they didn't.
 
Marc Wielage said:
I think people need to be grateful for what they have, rather than wishing they had what they didn't.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Have you ever noticed that the people who spend their time wishing for more features generally don't produce anything but tests? ;)
 
I talked to the folks at Vision Research at NAB briefly and found out a bit about their cameras. The newer less expensive ones do write to internal memory buffers and then offload to removable media after the shot's done. I suspect that the Phantom Flex does something similar, but with a larger on-board cache. They're made specifically for very high speed capture, while Reds are made for film production.
 
Another thing to note, is that at its highest speeds, Phantom Cameras can only shoot for a handful of seconds before having to cut and offload.

Its been awhile since I've worked with a Phantom but I'm pretty sure the tech they use to accomplish those insane speeds is called ram buffering. Basically, all the info is captured, but not processed, allowing them to capture insane amounts of data very quickly. Then, once the internal RAM is full, then the camera stops shooting, and begins to transfer all the stored raw data over to its processing stages.

So in essence the camera acts more like a sprinter than a marathon runner. Whereas RED cameras need to be able to shoot more or less indefinitely at any FPS because that's what's required of a cinema camera.

It's just comes down to a case of a specialty camera versus a main camera.
 
Rakesh Malik said:
I thought Black Magic had attracted those folks over there with their much cheaper cameras, since for some reason people tend to want more features in less expensive gear, and expect more specialization in higher end gear. I guess there's always an oddball. :)
Click to expand...

To be fair, for the longest time I was hoping Scarlet-X would get 4.5k WS at 24fps... To match R1, y'know... Granted, that's not *double* the frame rate or anything (it's actually the same amount of pixels as 4k DCI, but technically should be easier to process since higher vertical resolution is harder to do, apparently.)

Maybe Magic Lantern will give 'er a go one day... ...Le sigh.
 
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Russ Fill said:
Heres a question then,,, how does the Flex achieve the 1000 fps?? different sensor, different processer... Is it only for a short time in a cash... could RED's do that also...???? Whats the difference and does anyone think it will be possible in the future to do higher frame rates with RED's..??
Click to expand...

Different sensor, processor, general hardware. Sensor has less dynamic range, notably so than say Dragon. Some other greebles as well.

RED could make a high speed camera with a similar spec and likely at $100K+ price tag as well, but for general shooting Dragon and Helium will net you a more cinematic/higher quality image.

In terms of getting Helium or Dragon there, no. It would take an entirely new "everything" to do this. The Flex 4K can be used for general shooting however, just not the most ideal solution.


The longer story short is this is more or less a game of trade-offs when it comes down to general camera features and performance then there's the price and market to consider of course.
 
Vision Research creates their own sensors and ASICS similar to the MX and Dragon sensor. Like Phil stated they are built with different things in mind and as you go faster there are trade offs in dynamic range, data rates, etc. The Flex4K does buffer an uncompressed "shot" and you can shoot 120 at UHD, in run stop mode, but that's about it. Which goes to show, buffer or RAM has to be a big consideration when building a camera that is meant for high speed. In a few years I'm sure things will change on the high speed front, but the Flex4K produces a very rich and insanely low noise image for the speeds they are hitting, but nothing close to Dragon. The Helium sensor is different because it's not built by Red, so I don't know if they can squeeze more out of it or not. Color / Speed / Dynamic Range and Sensitivity seem to be the "you can have some, but not all" trade offs of digital cinema. Red does a good job of hitting them all with the Weapon 6K.
 
Charles Bergquist said:
Vision Research creates their own sensors and ASICS similar to the MX and Dragon sensor. Like Phil stated they are built with different things in mind and as you go faster there are trade offs in dynamic range, data rates, etc. The Flex4K does buffer an uncompressed "shot" and you can shoot 120 at UHD, in run stop mode, but that's about it. Which goes to show, buffer or RAM has to be a big consideration when building a camera that is meant for high speed. In a few years I'm sure things will change on the high speed front, but the Flex4K produces a very rich and insanely low noise image for the speeds they are hitting, but nothing close to Dragon. The Helium sensor is different because it's not built by Red, so I don't know if they can squeeze more out of it or not. Color / Speed / Dynamic Range and Sensitivity seem to be the "you can have some, but not all" trade offs of digital cinema. Red does a good job of hitting them all with the Weapon 6K.
Click to expand...

Can anyone confirm this?

Although it would make sense, since they get them out so fast.
 
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