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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Highest realistic ISO

N

Nick Gardner

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I have a project coming up that I plan to shoot almost entirely on a lomo Foton A zoom lens. The only downside is that it's a T4. I am shooting 6k and 6:1 compression. I've shot some tests and evaluated them and I am quite happy with the amount of noise at 2000 iso. I actually like it at 6k. It has a very filmy grain to it, but nice and subtle.

I am curious what the high end of ISO is for different users. I have plenty of fire power, but I do have some rather large night exteriors where we are probably going to want to shoot slow mo. Examples are welcome.


I'll be shooting LLOLPF. I shot this at 1600 ISO (interiors) with the skin tone OLPF, so I know what I am getting into, just curious how fast others are rating the camera.

https://vimeo.com/139033948

Thanks,

Nick
 
I think it really depends on the scene for me. For example, I'm happy rating at 1600 outside or in situations that have plenty of general fill. But I don't like the higher iso's in a dark scene. It's amazing how they can be used in a medium-bright scene and look great though.
 
Nick Gardner said:
I have a project coming up that I plan to shoot almost entirely on a lomo Foton A zoom lens. The only downside is that it's a T4. I am shooting 6k and 6:1 compression. I've shot some tests and evaluated them and I am quite happy with the amount of noise at 2000 iso. I actually like it at 6k. It has a very filmy grain to it, but nice and subtle.

I am curious what the high end of ISO is for different users. I have plenty of fire power, but I do have some rather large night exteriors where we are probably going to want to shoot slow mo. Examples are welcome.


I'll be shooting LLOLPF. Examples are welcome. I shot this at 1600 ISO (interiors) with the skin tone OLPF, so I know what I am getting into, just curious how fast others are rating the camera.

https://vimeo.com/139033948

Thanks,

Nick
Click to expand...

First off, your video made me cry. Nice work!

Secondly, I'm two years new to DRAGON (and digital cinematography for that matter). In my experience (which, again, is much less than many on these boards), I've found I have a tendency to under-expose, even when I take some care to measure my light values using DSC charts. Thus, I often find that when I shoot at ISO 800, I'm using 1280 when I'm editing. And when I shoot at ISO 1280, I'm using ISO 1600-2000 when I'm editing. Crazy, I know! But the takeaway from this part of my answer is that I would never feel comfortable metering at ISO 2000 because I don't trust myself to not actually need to edit at ISO 3200.

I totally agree with you that the organic grain structure of ISO 2000 is its own thing of beauty, as is the clean image one can get with STH at ISO 320. Horses for courses. That said, I haven't really found a place for ISO 2000 noise within my own aesthetic. Fortunately, DEB works nicely in concert with LLO, and Davinci Resolve's temporal noise reduction also works very nicely to calm things down. Moreover, now that I'm shooting on CF WEAPON, I get most of the beauty of STH colors with almost all of the gain advantages of LLO, so I'm really not the least bit afraid of landing on ISO 2000, even when I'm constantly surprised that that's where things go.

I also agree that shooting 6K gives one lots of firepower inside the negative to keep the noise subtle (perhaps that's why DEB and Resolve seem to work so well). But, in addition to my short-comings when it comes to metering, I'm also finding that I really need to give myself room to reframe, and so I shoot 6K with a self-imposed 5K mask. That, too, uses up a certain amount of my noise budget. Which is why I always start by metering and lighting at ISO 800, and will absolutely add lights if the histogram starts getting too thin at ISO 1280. Belt-and-suspenders.

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks for the compliments on the piece ;-)

I kind of threw all the rules out the window with dragon. I rate it at 250 iso outside all the time. That hasn't bit me on the ass yet. Actually, there isn't a single time where I ever got into trouble with the dragon. I usually shoot everything at 5k and about 8:1 compression. For the data to be manageable, and for lens coverage. Since this next thing is anamorphic, I'll be 6k and lower compression -make the DIT earn his day rate ;-) The ability to basically make this T4 lens a 2.8 by bumping up the ISO opens a lot of possibilities.

Nick
 
With the LLO I think 2000 ISO is about as far as I'm willing to go. I like to keep STH around 800 and lower. I've noticed the grain structure of LLO @ 2000 is very similar to STH @ 800. I think STH and a slower lens makes for much more cinematic lighting because you are forced to be a bit harder with it (like film). I lean towards to the LLO and fast lenses for a more modern look. Just depends on your taste really.
 
The test looks so good with that piece there that I wouldn't push it much more than you have, I think you could go to 2000, but I might rate only as high as 1280-1600 and leave yourself the wiggle room to process at 2000.

I think if you rate at 2000 you get less wiggle room so you might have to push into noise.

I think what ever formula you have for that piece you posted, stuck with that! It looks great.

David
 
Under which type of light ?
Click to expand...

Now that's a very good point. I shot my tests in my shop with 3200 kino tubes. I use those in single bank florescents for work lights. When I'm shooting night exteriors it will be HMIs and fire/fire gags. My guess is if the noise was OK at 2000 with tungsten, it will be better at 5600k.

Nick
 
I've shot up to 6400 iso but had to use heavy neat video denoiser to get it under "some" control... I had to shoot in a dark theater with long lenses. The result is quite good even with some noise present. The major problem is the fixed pattern if the denoiser is to heavy.

But noise is a thing of taste and somtimes necessity...

Pat
 
Nick Gardner said:
Now that's a very good point. I shot my tests in my shop with 3200 kino tubes. I use those in single bank florescents for work lights. When I'm shooting night exteriors it will be HMIs and fire/fire gags. My guess is if the noise was OK at 2000 with tungsten, it will be better at 5600k.

Nick
Click to expand...

That's for the shot elements you have control over. Take into account night surroundings and street lights, where little goblins tend to prance around, drawn by poor spectrum coverage of street lights. Prancing varies due to street light types, states, mix, etc. Typical ISO tests used as a noise reference for shoots in uncontrolled environment are wheel of fortune approach.

/Tack-tack-tack-tack/
"aaaaaand......it's noise goblins. "
 
with the new standard dragon OLPF I'm ok up to around ISO 2400, even ISO 3200 in decent light. I recently did a natural light shoot where the sun went down as we were doing the last few lines so I had to push the ISO to 3200 to maintain DOF consistency. The footage was still very usable. However, I did some tests at a new year party this year and found that ISO3200 was a bit too grainy when the light is absolutely minimal, and also the colour got very flat and lifeless (at 3200K). As with your experience, I find the grain to be almost filmic, and it's a nice texture. Far better than MX noise.
 
Cool. Thanks for the feed back. I'm not trying to shoot in the dark. I will have 125 amps and around 10k watts of HMIs plus LEDs. I have about a 120' set to light and I am sure we are going to want to overcrank at some point. Doing that at a T4 means I have to get a little creative ;-)

NIck
 
Hmmm. Speaking of being creative...anyone shot with no olpf? Shooting on old softish glass anyway......

Nick

Edit - Never mind, forgot about IR pollution.
 
Nick, the standard OLPF seems to be worth a look. Recently my camera bricked and the sensor needed a repair (second time). In the course of this repair I ordered the removable OLPF setup and asked to exchange the old STH for the new Standard OLPF.

The camera now exhibits less noise. ISO 800 is in all scenarios doable, even in low-light environments. The roll-off in the high-lights seems to be as good as before. Color is good with a tad less greenish tint. I think that Red nailed it.

Hans
 
Looks great, I think I might buy that lens based on your video...
 
Before you go buy a Foton, that was shot on Lomo square fronts primes. I have had 3 foton anamorphic zooms, and the one I have now is by far the sharpest. It would hold up to the primes for most of the zoom range.

Nick
 
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