Helium or Gemini?

[Roberto Leone]

I'm a Scarlet-W owner, and now it's time to upgrade with a new RED. Gemini is the monster of the dark, larger sensor, highest frame rate @ 5K, and Helium is 8K, with a good 60fps @ 8K. My idea is to buy this new camera with a zoom Angenieux 30-90 T2, wich is the best combo? My idea is to be ready for the 8k, but is really to bad with low light??

 

[Mike Kozlenko]

To me the Gemini just looks better. The higher-ISO capabilities are nice but even under normal exposure scenarios, I like the colors & highlight retention more on the Gemini. I shot a film in December with Gemini as A-cam and Helium as B-cam

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Higher resolution or better quality.

 

[Phil Holland]

Pretty much a question I get asked a few times a week and there really hasn't been one real trend or another sprouting from it.

So, here's some good info.

First and format, take a look at this format size comparison:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?makeA=RED&modelA=Gemini+5K+S35&formatA=5K+1.7%3A1&makeB=RED&modelB=Helium+8K+S35&formatB=8K+FF&focalLengths=

I'll start with frame rate, you've seen the max formats above and you know what they top out at, but also keep in mind that at 5K that have the same max frame rates at two very different format sizes, here's both 5K FF formats:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?makeA=RED&modelA=Gemini+5K+S35&formatA=5K+FF&makeB=RED&modelB=Helium+8K+S35&formatB=5K+FF&focalLengths=

That's where a lot of peeps get sort of stuck because that crop on Helium is notable, essentially a bit smaller than Academy 35mm.


Quick summary of my personal take:

Gemini Pros
- Better full height anamorphic support
- Cleaner in Low Light compared to Helium
- Larger format at 5K and larger format at max FPS

Helium Pros
- 8K Resolution capable at up to 60p
- 8K to 4K downsample is a sexy thing IMO
- It is the highest resolution S35 sensor in a digital cinema camera


I wouldn't say Helium is really "bad" in low light, but more or less the breakdown is Monstro is the cleanest at max res and then it goes to Gemini and likely the newer Dragon 6K option and then Helium in terms of cleanliness. Haven't tested out the latest Dragon 6K, it's just hitting people now, but it's already pretty good in low light at 5K and 6K.

 

[Andrew Reese]

This is why we need an 8k resolution upgrade for gemini sensor for DSMC3 (Hint Hint Jared.....) or I guess I will just have upgrade to Monstro eventually, but its not a camera for everyones budget and clients (including mine really).

In my experience, (I Own Gemini 5K) and have used Dragon 6k, Helium 8k, etc. side by side, and Gemini simply to my eyes outperforms Helium and Dragon in my opinion in (Low-Light run and gun, better shadows detail and highlight rolloff, more neutral skin tones out of the gate, less crop at high frame rates, etc.). Other than offering a higher resolution 6-8k recording format there is no other advantage visible to Dragon or Helium. I shoot a lot of high frame rates so the fact the Gemini has minimal crop when shooting 5k/24 fps vs 5k/120 fps is a big deal for me and I am sure some others out there that do a lot of action / high frame rate B-roll scenes.

That being said, there is a noticeable difference in 8K vs 6k vs 5K for wide/landscapes and shots with a lot of detail (i.e. shooting nature vs. close-ups of faces) and downsampling from 8K-4k definitely has its benefits. If I were filming a wildlife documentary that may be an area where I would rent a Helium for A-Cam over my Gemini as B-Cam.

Just my 2 cents on personal experience.

 

[Roberto Leone]

Thanks a lot for your comments guys, i think i will buy the Gemini, cheaper and better for many reasons...and the 30-90mm angenienux is the best zoom lens for this such of camera!!

 

[Björn Benckert]

If not monstro, I would go for gemini.

8k helium is nice for vintage glas that does not cover more. But then also colorfringing is very noticeable on helium. And I never really liked how it clips. Gemini I find to be more monstro like in that regard.

 

[Tim Daust]

I have both the Helium and Gemini - you really cant go wrong with either. I still love my helium a lot.

 

[Roberto Leone]

thanks a lot guys..Monstro is too expensive, and maybe the Gemini is the best compromise, but sometimes could happen to get more details..more resolution..for this reason 8K could be perfect. I'm downloading some sample video files from RED.COM to check how the Helium works at highest ISO, if i can work with Denoise in Davinci

 

[Hayward riley]

I have helium Brain for sell. 88 hours still under warranty.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I'm just sitting on the sidelines, but I think you made the right choice by choosing the Gemini.

Is there really a need for 8K? If so, you should rent, unless of course you have the money to buy a Helium or even a Monstro. IMHO!

 

[Gabriel Mann]

Can't go wrong

Can't go wrong

I have both the Helium and Gemini - you really cant go wrong with either. I still love my helium a lot.

I have and love both, as well. The Gemini is more versatile. With the LL mode and less of a crop factor at high speeds, it's a better all-around camera. But the Helium image is spectacular.

I won't say that the Gemini isn't sharp (cuz it still is), or that the Helium isn't quite great in low light (cuz it still is), but there are advantages to both, and you just need to be honest about which are more important to you.

I use the Gemini more often, because of the versatility. But I PREFER to use the Helium when I can....the image is just ridiculous. If you shoot controlled environments, go Helium. If you run-n-gun, go Gemini.

 

[Roberto Leone]

I have both the Helium and Gemini - you really cant go wrong with either. I still love my helium a lot.

wow! i need to buy a couple of zoom for run and gun use, but except the EZ Angenieux, i didn't find anything else...suggestions?

 

[James Sielaff]

wow! i need to buy a couple of zoom for run and gun use, but except the EZ Angenieux, i didn't find anything else...suggestions?

When you go 5K WS, the Optimo T2.8 compact zooms do well on Gemini. In 5K HD, there is slight vignetting on the wide end. At 4.5K or 4K they are perfect! Which is about as much resolution as a Mini LF, and totally netflix approved, and standard s35 size, plus you get higher frame rate options, if you think about it. And the iso3200LL turns the T2.8 into some fast glass!

And the Angeniuex anamorphic zoom looks spectacular too!

 

[Roberto Leone]

I have and love both, as well. The Gemini is more versatile. With the LL mode and less of a crop factor at high speeds, it's a better all-around camera. But the Helium image is spectacular.

I won't say that the Gemini isn't sharp (cuz it still is), or that the Helium isn't quite great in low light (cuz it still is), but there are advantages to both, and you just need to be honest about which are more important to you.

I use the Gemini more often, because of the versatility. But I PREFER to use the Helium when I can....the image is just ridiculous. If you shoot controlled environments, go Helium. If you run-n-gun, go Gemini.

Thanks for your comment Gabriel! Why you define the Gemini more versatile? Helium could be perfect for me but there are 2 important reasons: low light is really too terrible compared with Gemini? I coming from the Scarlet-w wich is not a real good choice for low light, the other question is the crop factor, with 7k or 6k resolution the Helium has a terrible crop..these are the only 2 points where i still not 100% sure.

 

[Alexander_Klose]

Whan the Gemini came out and we had the chance to upgrade from the Epic-W to either Gemini or Helium DSMC2 we went for the Helium.
The reason was simple. When we shoot on the Red we mostly have time to build out ideas and define what we want on paper. We have choice over light and can create nice scenes.
The Red goes with projects that give us the time to prep the location to get out everything of that 8k sensor.
I did never regret the decision. The images and the color gives me what I always searched for.
Clear images with an insane amount of detail, great colors all in one of the best formats out there.

For documentary or scenarios where you have to be fast, we would not use a Red most of the time.
We need to travel light and be as quick as possible to react to things that happen arround us.
But if a client wanted it shot on Red right now, I´d pick a Gemini over Helium at any time.

High ISOs are super handy when it comes to shoots were lighting simply is not possible or if there
is no time to set something up.

So both Sensors have there clear advantages.
The question is not whats better but what jobs are you going to do more I think.

 

[AndreasOberg]

You should be aware that Helium will be considerably sharper than the Gemini since it will be 8k downsampled to 4k. You also have the possibility to crop in which is something we use very often. It is extremely useful to be able to zoom in 200% and pick out details.
Gemini is about 1.3 stops better in the dark than Helium so not a massive difference, but it is there of course. So ISO 2000 on Helium is like ISO 6400 on Gemini.

Andreas

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

You should be aware that Helium will be considerably sharper than the Gemini since it will be 8k downsampled to 4k.

Not with those zooms.

 

[Roberto Leone]

Not with those zooms.

why?

 

[Björn Benckert]

Pretty much a question I get asked a few times a week and there really hasn't been one real trend or another sprouting from it.

So, here's some good info.

First and format, take a look at this format size comparison:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?makeA=RED&modelA=Gemini+5K+S35&formatA=5K+1.7%3A1&makeB=RED&modelB=Helium+8K+S35&formatB=8K+FF&focalLengths=

I'll start with frame rate, you've seen the max formats above and you know what they top out at, but also keep in mind that at 5K that have the same max frame rates at two very different format sizes, here's both 5K FF formats:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?makeA=RED&modelA=Gemini+5K+S35&formatA=5K+FF&makeB=RED&modelB=Helium+8K+S35&formatB=5K+FF&focalLengths=

That's where a lot of peeps get sort of stuck because that crop on Helium is notable, essentially a bit smaller than Academy 35mm.


Quick summary of my personal take:

Gemini Pros
- Better full height anamorphic support
- Cleaner in Low Light compared to Helium
- Larger format at 5K and larger format at max FPS

Helium Pros
- 8K Resolution capable at up to 60p
- 8K to 4K downsample is a sexy thing IMO
- It is the highest resolution S35 sensor in a digital cinema camera


I wouldn't say Helium is really "bad" in low light, but more or less the breakdown is Monstro is the cleanest at max res and then it goes to Gemini and likely the newer Dragon 6K option and then Helium in terms of cleanliness. Haven't tested out the latest Dragon 6K, it's just hitting people now, but it's already pretty good in low light at 5K and 6K.

Question, the ”new dragon6k DSMC2” is it any different than my dragon 6k dsmc2 that I got when dsmc2 just came out? Its the same no?

Not to derail the thread and I have not really followed the developments of dragon. But as i understand later after helium release dragon was software limited to 5k and quite resently that limitation was taken out. But all trough its the same dragon camera as was the first dsmc2 camera to be released, no?