Helium IPP2 Highlight Test - Huge improvement

[jake blackstone]

I definitely see the correlation. But this isn't that complicated of a subject. You either have open betas or closed betas, and your corporate culture will probably dictate which one you choose.

And it sounds like you want to have a discussion about the merits of open betas vs closed betas. But honestly I'm not that interested because neither of us runs a camera company. So, we can only speak from conjecture, and not from expertise.

But, on a side note, you know you don't HAVE to use the beta software right? You can continue using DC2/RLF until IPP2 is fully released (like I'm doing) or you can try out some bleeding edge tech, at the cost of having to do so through a FREE single use software. But no one is getting subjected to anything! That's a bit over dramatic don't you think? Especially when the users are volunteering to be testers. (Kind of like what BMD does every year with it's Resolve beta releases.)

And if you are only going to learn one program, then I'm not going to argue the merits of learning a universal programs vs a single use programs, because that's an obvious answer. But RCX is a free program that takes 15 minutes to learn, and is a good way to practice the basics of color grading. Are you really going to argue it's not worth the time to learn? Especially if you find yourself consistently using R3D files?

For example, once I started shooting RED and specifically shooting RAW, I knew I needed to learn color correction. So I started learning the basics of balancing images, using curves, and using color wheels, all in RCX. Then, once I felt comfortable with the basics, I moved on to a significantly more complicated program, Resolve.

No, the argument is about wasted development on a software that has outlived it's usefulness years ago, when it replaced the Assimilate based RedCine. Since then there are many OTHER new cameras, that came into the existence, requiring knowledge and the universal tools in order to be able to deliver ANY images.

 

[jake blackstone]

we use resolve, flame, nuke, premiere and many other programs in our work flow. And yes we work with all the cameras out there and most of them got a similar tool like RCXP and we use most of them to. Have you ever hard of Arri Raw converter? Or the tool made by visual research to deal with phantom footage?

Simply every reduser is not a colourist sitting on a grading setup like yours.

Infact most red owners are far from it, more of the photographer / Cinematographer kind of people and most such are not willing to spend the time it take t learn resolve. Sure it would be great for them if they did but they usually find it more important to focus on the filming part of things. But when out in the jungle shooting its great to be able to just get back in the tent and see if the picture holds up simply just hook up the mag reader and alter the meta data to see whats there.

A lot of the still photographers are used to deal with Capture One and similar tools get quite confused if they are introduced to normal grading platforms. RCXP on the other hand are quite close to their normal workflow of debayering and then further processing in photo shop. I dont know how many Still photographers I worked with since I got into red that just love to sit and scrub their clips in RCXP and pull out stills. It´s as I see it a rather good platform and it does not take more than minutes for somebody that is used to work with pictures to lear how to alter the meta data copy it between clips, render out proxies etc. And normally thats all they want to do. The final colouring is done later. They simply like to sit in the hotel after shoot and simply pull colors and contrasts around to get it somewhat close to what they wanted it to be before the proxies are rendered out for the offline. For such use I think RCXP is outstanding.

So as I see if red did not have RCXP it would have been if not an impossibly sell to many, atleast a much tougher one. And if nothing else RCXP is a good measuring point. If something behaves oddly in a piple line it´s good to see how the colors etc are dealt with when doing the same in RCXP. We have a case now with resolve at the moment where there is a bug / difference between different OS X versions and just to have RCXP on the side to see that its actually resolve doing the error and not the computer / graphics or what not is making it far easier to pin point where the trouble is.

You are keep talking about photographers and one man DYI types. I'm talking about modern workflow used on TV shows, commercials, music videos and features, where there are number of people, that need to be able to communicate and exchange work. If you are sitting in your garage playing with your images, then what do I care? Do you think that the image Red wants to project to the rest of the world is of the beginners trying to coax some decent images from their camera or do they want to be known as a world class camera company, that shoots for the stars by delivering the highest quality of the images possible? Like it or not, if you are a professional, first you never use beta of anything for your work and second, you always use appropriate tools and qualified personnel. Just because you profess to use Flame, Nuke and Resolve doesn't make you an authority on the modern workflow. In your case, it is usually hit or miss:sneaky2:
And yes, I have heard about ARRI Raw converter. The difference being, ARRI doesn't position it as a replacement for the traditional DIT tools, like Colorfront, Cortex, Daylight etc. Phantom, again, can easily be processed using standard DIT software, that I just had mentioned. Remember, using the appropriate tools?

 

[Björn Benckert]

No, the argument is about wasted development on a software that has outlived it's usefulness years ago, when it replaced the Assimilate based RedCine. Since then there are many OTHER new cameras, that came into the existence, requiring knowledge and the universal tools in order to be able to deliver.

I doubt that there is much resources put into RCXP. I dont know how many people RED have on staff that works with it full time but I doubt that it´s more than a few. And again ARRI, Sony and Phantom cameras all come with pretty much identical apps so somehow these kind of apps must be on request even if you are not using them.

You are keep talking about photographers and one man DYI types. I'm talking about modern workflow used on TV shows, commercials, music videos and features, where there are number of people, that need to be able to communicate and exchange work. If you are sitting in your garage playing with your images, then what do I care? Do you think that the image Red wants to project to the rest of the world is of the beginners trying to coax some decent images from their camera or do they want to be known as a world class camera company, that shoots for the stars by delivering the highest quality of the images possible? Like it or not, if you are a professional, first you never use beta of anything for your work and second, you always use appropriate tools and qualified personnel. Just because you profess to use Flame, Nuke and Resolve doesn't make you an authority on the modern workflow. In your case, it is usually hit or miss:sneaky2:
And yes, I have heard about ARRI Raw converter. The difference being, ARRI doesn't position it as a replacement for the traditional DIT tools, like Colorfront, Cortex, Daylight etc. Phantom, again, can easily be processed using standard DIT software, that I just had mentioned. Remember, using the appropriate tools?

Jake, Why are you always talking down to me and others here?

At the moment I´m in charge of postproduction for one of the bigest TV / web series produced in Scandinavia its being shot by a DP that shot several Hollywood features. It´s shot on 3 heliums. They started shooting when heliums where pretty much all white cameras. Yes on beta firmware, when color science was far from finished. We are well into the finalising of the first out of 10x45 minute episodes. We use redcine in our work flow. We are mastring in 7k.

Sure I run a shit small company in a garage but I also worked on quite large production where Arri raw converter being in use. I also worked together with a lot of Phantom operators that very much fancy their app. And as I remember, for a long time that was the only app that could actually get the colors right from their miro raw files and I think it was the same for the 4k phantom when it came out.

Im absolutely not an authority on workflows but as I got a red camera, I like to discuss and learn. And every time I try to do so you come and drop harsh comments like the one above.

 

[Audy Erel]

RED cameras are the ultimate tool for intelligent passionate artists who love to invent their own customized brush, experiment with new paint color & cutting edge technique, create out-of-the-box masterpiece on their one-of-a-kind canvas material! We are the soulful, brave leaders & bold trendsetters who dare to break the rules!

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake, Why are you always talking down to me and others here?
Im absolutely not an authority on workflows but as I got a red camera, I like to discuss and learn. And every time I try to do so you come and drop harsh comments like the one above.
At the moment I´m in charge of postproduction for one of the bigest TV / web series produced in Scandinavia...

If you may remember, it all pretty much started, when you expressed the idea, that with the new technology the colorist's profession is no longer needed. I'm sure, you only said that out of love and respect for my chosen profession and in no way it was patronizing or insulting. You then went even quite a bit further by declaring, that you have the right to someone else's work. I'm not going to look for an exact quote by you, but the gist was, that if you are to hire a colorist, that colorist, along with the deliverable material, also MUST provide you their project. And if they refuse, then they will not be hired again and you will reverse engineer their work and reuse it, even though it's not yours. Does that ring the bell? And what about the time, when you posted an image shot on HELIUM camera vs image from Alexa, but Alexa had lens flare and you, nevertheless, claimed that the image clearly demonstrated superiority of Helium sensor, until you had to retract it, when you were called out on it. And how about you repeatedly confusing LUTs with transforms and confusing transforms and transformations, with the latest only instance being the last week? You are claiming to be in charge of one of the biggest Scandinavian productions, yet you still confused about the basic terminology. How is that possible?
Does that answer your main question?

 

[jake blackstone]

RED cameras are the ultimate tool for intelligent passionate artists who love to invent their own customized brush, experiment with new paint color & cutting edge technique, create out-of-the-box masterpiece on their one-of-a-kind canvas material! We are the soulful, brave leaders & bold trendsetters who dare to break the rules!

Yeah, I heard it all, like "we're going to invent the new colors". It's all well and good, but before you go and break the rules, first you must learn them...
I seriously would love to see some of this "new paint color & cutting edge technique"...

 

[Audy Erel]

Yeah, I heard it all, like "we're going to invent the new colors". It's all well and good, but before you go and break the rules, first you must learn them...
I seriously would love to see some of this "new paint color & cutting edge technique"...

It's an expression of the anti mainstream mentality. The positive feeling and fun adventure of RED

 

[Alain M]

Jake you seem like mad. If you have a problem with RED having the balls to bring improvements during BETA and share them with us, and give us freebies even if still under development and goodies just by doing upgrade and by us staying aware of the news here in the forum and do the tests which they need during the process, and which we have fun living that journey because we can always go back to the previous firmware, wouldn't be easier for you just to have your RED camera with a software firmware that works (default that comes when purchase), never expect a change in camera, never update the firmware, ignore red extra goodies they bring like graeme with the new color science.... and just wait for the next red camera 3 years later so that you never have to deal with these thing that most of us love because we don't care.. we want all those goodies... they are goodies and freebies man... which company does that with cameras? name one?

Peace and love

again... my 2 humble cents

 

[Alex Boothby]

If you may remember, it all pretty much started, when you expressed the idea, that with the new technology the colorist's profession is no longer needed. I'm sure, you only said that out of love and respect for my chosen profession and in no way it was patronizing or insulting. You then went even quite a bit further by declaring, that you have the right to someone else's work. I'm not going to look for an exact quote by you, but the gist was, that if you are to hire a colorist, that colorist, along with the deliverable material, also MUST provide you their project. And if they refuse, then they will not be hired again and you will reverse engineer their work and reuse it, even though it's not yours. Does that ring the bell? And what about the time, when you posted an image shot on HELIUM camera vs image from Alexa, but Alexa had lens flare and you, nevertheless, claimed that the image clearly demonstrated superiority of Helium sensor, until you had to retract it, when you were called out on it. And how about you repeatedly confusing LUTs with transforms and confusing transforms and transformations, with the latest only instance being the last week? You are claiming to be in charge of one of the biggest Scandinavian productions, yet you still confused about the basic terminology. How is that possible?
Does that answer your main question?

Jake have you been juicing again? Why all the rage?

Here are few soothing points to calm your nerves;
- No-one is forcing you to use beta software. Wait for the IPP2 release, then the SDK, coming soon to your favourite app.
- No-one is forcing you, or anyone else, to use Redcine. It’s there for those of us who like it
- When Björn, or anyone else, says that Rescine is fast (which it is) they are not taking a personal shot at you. They probably aren’t the least bit concerned with threatening your ego.
- I’m thinking threads on beta-tech are not the place for you. You’re too angry to appreciate that some folks like to spitball and test and bounce ideas around. And some of us have different workflows than you.
- Peace and love brother. Art, filming and innovation are a lot less combative than you think.

 

[Alex Boothby]

Peace and love

Alain, you beat me by 30 seconds

 

[Phil Holland]

Google- open perpetual beta, Apple internal beta testing. Red endless open color science beta testing, Arri internal beta testing. Are you starting to see the correlation in end product quality between open beta testing and the proper internal testing?
Once more, no one is arguing about the need for internal testing tools. the question is why subject users to the incomplete and untested tools before they are ready. Test it internally by using whatever tools necessary and then release the SDK.
And once more, RCX only works works with R3D files as is the RRX. If the price is an issue, Resolve also is free! In my opinion, it is much better use of anyone's time and efforts to learn more UNIVERSAL tools used by just about everyone in the business...

I don't see ARRI, Sony, Canon etc keep pushing their own processing software onto the users, just so Red is able to continue to refine their own color science. I truly think, that Red is doing a huge disservice to the Red community by continuing to perpetuate this "us against them" mentality. Red is just one of many camera manufacturers and to continue to push the software, that can only be used with just one camera is not productive. Frankly, nowadays, I rarely get to work on the projects, that only uses one type of the camera. No one argues, that you need tools for internal testing, then why not keep RCX just for that? I think it would be better to stop spending money on the development of the software, that no one really NEEDS and pass the savings to the users...

I am having a glorious laugh at what you wrote above Jake.

And what you wrote below.......

Don't use beta software, problem solved...

And on a side note, while localized perspective and experience is a strong pusher of beliefs, do understand that there are a whole lot of folks who use RCX for production use.

 

[David Battistella]

I think these releases ultimately help advance the product quickly. By casting a wide net and getting stuff in many different situations it gives RED the ability to test and refine on a large scale. This gets the best version to people quickly. RCX is a great raw decoding tool specific to RED which people use in many different ways. I use it to one-light stuff before importing into FCP-X for example because it is a fast and easy way to put that metadata that FCP has to read into the RMD file and let FCP do the rendering. That is one use and people have other uses, but I think it's just something red needs to maintain as a development, production, stills workflow tool etc. so many uses for RCX. It's also what the SDK is based on. Nikon, canon, arri, Sony, all have their own tool to look at stuff.

That said, I know a lot of development when into this color science and Graeme has managed to squeak more out of both existing and new cameras that record r3d files. Some of this is helpful to the high end specialized professional and some of it makes life easier for everyday users that want things simplified.

That alone is a difficult and commendable accomplishment.

Really, I think the saddest thing I've heard about lately is ARRI' new "look book" that's a far bigger nightmare/headache for professional colorists, no?

Mostly now, in our consumer culture, people tend to want to make a choice rather than explore every option and tinker.

Cheers,
David

 

[Björn Benckert]

If you may remember, it all pretty much started, when you expressed the idea, that with the new technology the colorist's profession is no longer needed. I'm sure, you only said that out of love and respect for my chosen profession and in no way it was patronizing or insulting. You then went even quite a bit further by declaring, that you have the right to someone else's work. I'm not going to look for an exact quote by you, but the gist was, that if you are to hire a colorist, that colorist, along with the deliverable material, also MUST provide you their project. And if they refuse, then they will not be hired again and you will reverse engineer their work and reuse it, even though it's not yours. Does that ring the bell? And what about the time, when you posted an image shot on HELIUM camera vs image from Alexa, but Alexa had lens flare and you, nevertheless, claimed that the image clearly demonstrated superiority of Helium sensor, until you had to retract it, when you were called out on it. And how about you repeatedly confusing LUTs with transforms and confusing transforms and transformations, with the latest only instance being the last week? You are claiming to be in charge of one of the biggest Scandinavian productions, yet you still confused about the basic terminology. How is that possible?
Does that answer your main question?

We are now derailing this thread more than a bit here. On this same old discussion.

Yes, im no professor in color terminology.
Yes, I dont think a colorist is needed for every projects, just as editors, VFX people, etc.

There is huge amount of projects done by solo artists and small teams that does not have one person for each trade. And I know from before you seam to find all that very offending and derailed more than one thread with the same old discussion. So reduser.net must be a very frustrating place for you, as most here are not really into following the Hollywood standards you keep referring to and possibly not using the right lingo or tools and instead just trying to film stuff that they find interesting and then finish those films with the tools they have at hand and that they think they can quickly wrap their head around, for some thats not Nucoda or even resolve. Possibly they did process the footage from their last film trough the gopro app, then RCXP might be looked upon as an improvement.

And regarding this Scandinavian drama show Im working with currently. Im absolutely not "in charge of it", my company is just doing the post for it, thats all. And for this we set up the workflow so that we are keeping the grade open from start to finish, just as I tried to explain to you in some other thread, it makes it far more easy for us to stay as much as possible with the native source, do editing changes, compositing etc. Again maybe not the standard workflow but it works well for us and I think a lot of people are heading in such direction. Just look at resolve 14 where the editing and VFX capabilities is where they spent a lot of effort. And the discussion about me stealing other peoples work then becomes a bit ridiculous as a lot of times, just as for this stuff we work on now, all the steps are done within the same facility. Its to me far from stealing anyones work, its about collaborating and working in a group. That was my point in that earlier discussion but sure if it makes you feel good, lets leave it at me trying to steal other peoples work.

About this red vs arri test I posted and then took down. If I remember correctly I posted it show the low noise floor of helium compared to alexa nothing else I did not write: "look red got much better colors than alexa". But the fact that people instantly started to discuss colors and other things at a time when color science for helium was far from done made me quickly understand that such postings just cause confusion. So I took those test frames down. It was quite evident if I would show the full test then people would jump at it and start judging helium by color in a way that would not be fair to anyone and especially not to RED. Here is the link I took down: https://app.frame.io/f/IfiXMK4F

And sure I think it´s important that RED implements the IPP2 transforms when its done into their SDK for other platforms, as just having a set of luts trying to mimic those transforms is not the same and it would not be a good thing if RCXP was held superior to other platforms for decoding r3d´s. But my guess is that as ipp2 is still under development, RED dont want it released just yet. Which I think is a good decisson, it´s better to deal with luts for now and get IPP2 more properly done before implementing it as transforms into the SDK.


From reading you posts on this forum it seams quite clear that you want everything and everyone gone that intrude on the profession of colorists. I can only guess that is also the reason why you want RED to end RCXP, possibly that would be great for colorists but for the average redusers I think RCXP is a great tool and I hope red keeps it.

 

[David Battistella]

Ok.

Mod hat on here guys.

Let's not bicker too much, it really drains a lot of energy and I don't have time to pick through every word of he said/she said posts. We're professionals, let's be professionals.

A little pause now. Let's talk IPP2

David

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Guys,

Thanks for this informative thread.

Can I just ask a question about the exact procedure used to process sthe image this way? As I understand it was a 2 step process.

1. Reduce the ISO and alter the colour temp until clipping is rolled off smoothly.

2. Then apply curves and colour adjustments as a secondary pass to normalise colour and gamma levels once again?

Is this correct?

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

Guys,

Thanks for this informative thread.

Can I just ask a question about the exact procedure used to process sthe image this way? As I understand it was a 2 step process.

1. Reduce the ISO and alter the colour temp until clipping is rolled off smoothly.

2. Then apply curves and colour adjustments as a secondary pass to normalise colour and gamma levels once again?

Is this correct?

I believe you only need to fiddle with the colour temp in extreme cases (say match it to over-exposed skintone). With what I tested (Epic-X footage) I saw a clear difference in highlight dynamic range simply by setting highlight roll-off to "very soft".

 

[Alex Boothby]

I believe you only need to fiddle with the colour temp in extreme cases (say match it to over-exposed skintone). With what I tested (Epic-X footage) I saw a clear difference in highlight dynamic range simply by setting highlight roll-off to "very soft".

Indeed. The smooth roll-off and highlight DR of IPP2 are there to see without any extra tricks. You can simply see more detail in areas that were previously blown out / clipped. Obviously you can see this better @ low ISOs. The ISO and col temp tests above were just explorations for testing purposes. As always I suggest doing your own tests to get a feel for it. But, as we know, IPP2 is still being refined so I wouldn't recommend any specific workflow until it's official release.

 

[Brett_M]

Shouldn't that nofilmschool test just be taken down? I feel like it adds to unnecessary hearsay and misinformation about RED.

On a seperate note- my REDCINE slows to an unusable crawl when i work with the IPP2 pipeline vs legacy. I have a newish macbook pro and RED Dragon footage, its always been fast for me otherise.

 

[Morgan Ryan]

Agree. The nofilmschool test should be at least updated, or amended with this information.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Shouldn't that nofilmschool test just be taken down? I feel like it adds to unnecessary hearsay and misinformation about RED.

On a seperate note- my REDCINE slows to an unusable crawl when i work with the IPP2 pipeline vs legacy. I have a newish macbook pro and RED Dragon footage, its always been fast for me otherise.

Double check so you using your gpu for acceleration.