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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Heat the EVF?! WTF?!

Jay A. Kelley

Jay A. Kelley

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St. Louis MO
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I just got off a 5 day shoot out here in St. Louis MO. We were outside and the EVF went bonkers on us. We got green shifts, severe banding, and horrible image quality.

So just a little while ago, I send a ticket to support, and dropped a courtesy line to Jarred letting him know what happened.

Then I come here and see a thread on "how to heat the EVF" talking about electric socks, wet suits, and other crazy things.

HUH?!?!?!

I don't get this. You know what I call an EVF that does not work in cold weather?! BROKEN!!!

I am sure RED agrees, there's no way they would allow such an obvious flaw in the equipment to remain this way. I mean, come on, does not work in cold weather? That covers quite a bit of the planet.

Now perhaps that other thread was just talking about a TEMPORARY WORKAROUND until RED can get the EVFs repaired or upgraded or whatever. If that's the case, then I understand completely, but I did not see that mentioned.

I have to express frustration (From the 5 days I was out there apologizing to the DP for the EVF being broke) and a little worry that instead of people asking when it will be fixed, I am seeing things like "Try electric socks".

I cannot do that.. It looks bad, and that makes ME look bad. Our equipment is professional grade. RED was built to work in extreme temps, it makes sense that it's core items should as well.

I know Jim, and I know RED. This will be taken care of. It's a very obvious flaw, and not up to specs of the RED we've grown to love.

My other concern, is the critics on set (Yes, you know the ones) really zeroed in on this "Jay, since the camera is modular, is there a "heat-the-evf-so-it-does-not-look-like 50's-television-module?!"

(Don't worry, I got even... Pee'd in his cornflakes at breakfast.)

Jay

PS To be sure I was being fair, we pulled two other cameras this morning and sat them from room temp to outside. Within 5 min the RED EVF went nuts, there were NO problems with the other non-red cameras, viewfinders or their monitors.
 
whoa, was this during the sub zero weather we are having

Most electronics struggle in low temps, basic laws of physics and its been insanely cold.

I would not classify this has "broken" until more users concur with your findings.

Although it is curious other electronics functioned. Companies with a lot more $ for testing and quality control than a developing company perhaps.

We shot in some cold (not zero) but below freezing and it worked fine 2 weeks ago.

good luck, perhaps you will inspire the RED "ARCTIC" EVF and/or a SCARLETT SUBZERO
PACKAGE??
 
I think most people have seen the banding on the EVF, I recently was shooting in 25 degree weather with windchill around zero and had the problem after about 5 minutes. I plugged in the USB warmer with a Wool sock over it that wraps the EVF. Works well but drains the battery pretty quick.

Would I like to see a final fix from Red on this, of course, as the EVF is not cheap, and I do not have this problem on my Sony's with either the color or B&W EVF. So it can be done, lets just hope that Red comes out with an easy fix for this.

In the mean time, get one of the electric socks or cup warmers, and old wool sock, and pray for some snow. I know it sucks on set when you do not have the fix at hand, but better luck next time

Ron
 
LCD's and plasma display crystals tend to freeze in general. So in sub-zero Celsius temperatures about anything based on such technology will have problems. That is to be expected.

While I understand your frustration, I did test sub-zero on our cams before renting it out, because it just is something that needs to be done on a system that is in development and only 1.5 years young. Also it is to be expected, that electronics is not very cold-friendly in general, and might behave funny. You may should have done the same, there were reports from Norway around here about the topic months ago.

I also do not understand quite your "look" argument. From my point of view, it is not about how a systems looks, it is about how it works. I cannot think, that anyone will say anything about a tape wrapped around the EVF, as long as the dop sees a nice picture in the EVF. When the EVF is violett though ... well you know too well what happened. :sarcasm:


If you read this, it might help you out for now:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=358707&postcount=14
This is something I tested myself in -10C and it works. It does not win a design contest, but it works.

As for RED not having designed the EVF for cold temperatures... well they sit in California, and it is their first design. I give them the benefit of the doubt. I also am glad that the camera is booting, when the body is at -11. I would be in more trouble otherwise.

I am with you on the fact, that the EVF seems to be badly designed for cold weather. Maybe posts like yours will get more attention to the problem, even when I would have been probably more cool in the phrasing...
But on the other hand, I did not had a dop kicking my ass for 5 days, because I trusted in RED unconditionally...
 
Let's slow down a little here.. If you read my note you will see my shock is NOT with RED, but with the fact that "workarounds" are being discussed without "solutions".
I have full confidence that RED will fix this, and I said that.

That said, you are right it's tough being out there for 5 days. You see it was a large shoot, and there were a lot of different cameras being used for various reasons. I was the only one with EVF problems due to cold.

I agree with you that I should have spent more time field testing in cold weather.. Regardless, I have now done this, for 5 days. And the EVF does not function well in cold.

As for the age of the company, and the lack of development. Let's just say, we're well aware of the problems with the EVF now, so it's time to get it fixed.

A lot of people will plan to keep using their EVF even with Epic/Scarlet, so it's important we don't live with this problem long term.

I am glad you are discussing workarounds, but I prefer to discuss "solutions/fixes" at this time.

As for trusting RED unconditionally, I think blanket statements like this are a little risky. Let's just say I made an error in assuming that since the body had been cold tested, the EVF had as well.

Jay
 
What's cold? How low do you define it? I personally don't think that it's a design flaw that it doesn't work at 0 degrees, rather that an additional product may need to be added to cover that contingency.

A neoprene case with a heating wire built in that keeps the EVF in a comfortable range should be a low cost accessory offered by Red or a third party.
 
Agree with you on this one Jay.

If it plays up it's a call to Red. But can they fix it?
I'd imagine as this fault is a bit common Red would have identified the faulty component/code/design/whatever.
If it's a component it may even be a particular batch.
Or it may be that ALL of them have a propensity to do this.it's a design fault.
Best outcome would be it is simply a faulty component which Red would change.
worse outcome is if the component/design fails under a number of scenarios and low tempature is simply one of them.
If it turns out to simply be all lcd are temperature sensitive then i expect the fix to be a little more problematic.
Heating 9if that's the fix) the component at fault would be a far simpler approach.
Construction inside the EVF is quite simple. 1 x small PCB, 1 x lcd (3cm) & sealed lens unit.
If the solution is heat, I'm sure RED are up to placing some kind of heating element attached to a thermister. External DTAP power could come via a 3.5mm socket on the EVF Case.

The issue here is....what brings it on?
I guess for some, low temperature cause unacceptable banding/false colour etc.
But I understand EVFs can also exhibit similiar symptoms in warm conditions also.

How many people have seen this problem with their or other?
Does it only appear in cold conditions?

Dave,
 
@Jay
How is shouting WTF around here a solution/fix for the EVF issue?
Does this help you at the next shoot?

You are shocked, that in our discussion, where we are trying to get the problem solved for our next gig, instead of screaming bloody murder? Excuse me?

Or do you expect RED to recall all 3000 EVFs tomorrow, cause you just had a shitty shoot, on a gig where you should have covered your back? How do you think the 100+ owners from Switzerland are dealing with this issue for months now?

I kinda do not get your point here.
Is it about stating out very loud, that there is a problem with the EVF in the cold, so that you get an official reaction from RED on this forum? If so, I totally miss how that is more constructive, that what we do in the other thread.


@David
From what I observed, on our both EVFs, the issue starts at about 5C. It is a sneaky posterization and bending in the colors. It tends to go away, when the EVF heats up itself, so one might think its because of the booting process.

My theory is, that as with all other plasma/lcd technology, the crystals in the display start be slow in their response time and produce false colors, till they freeze in total. I had this at the EVF at -10C, where the EVF was almost dark-violett.

I do not think, it will happen in warm climate as well. It might be on the other side of the spectrum at 40C somewhere in a desert, but I do not recall any issues being discussed here, apart to keep the camera cold. I cannot say anything from my own experience, as I did not shoot in a desert with the RED.
 
Another fun EVF thing: when they get too hot, the adhesive that holds the internal screen to its filters and "mount" will melt and the screen will shift. Ever looked into the EVF and seen what looked like a light leak? That's what it was.

The EVF totally rocks, but it has rather strict normal operating temperatures.
 
I'm having this problem too. But I don't know why you're upset about people trying to find workarounds. What would you have them do instead.. not use their EVF in cold weather?!

It sucks. It happened to me on a shoot the other day and it was only about -5 or -10. Without wind, that isn't even that cold. Temperatures are in that range quite often in the winter in Canada and the northern states. I would've expexted all the equipment to function normally in these conditions. I hope RED does fix this.
 
Bob Gruen said:
What's cold? How low do you define it? I personally don't think that it's a design flaw that it doesn't work at 0 degrees, rather that an additional product may need to be added to cover that contingency.
Click to expand...

Cold... 0 degrees (-18C).... If we're talking Fahrenheit, then yes that is cold and lots of gear, including pro gear, does not work well at such temps. Li-ion batteries will freeze at that temp too. RED has rated the RED One in operating temps as cold as -20C. I don't think they have ever made any specific claims about the EVF. BTW, I would never fire up a RED Drive at temperatures this cold, either.

If we're talking 0 degrees Celsius, (32F), then that is not cold. May be cold to someone who lives in a warm regions where freezing temperatures are not common. Most people in the world would not consider this cold. Any equipment that does not work at this temperature without additional protection, heat, etc.. would never be "professional" in my eye.

A neoprene case with a heating wire built in that keeps the EVF in a comfortable range should be a low cost accessory offered by Red or a third party.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a reasonable solution to me. And at temps like 0F/-18C, we also need means of keeping the LCD and batteries freezing. Actually, the LCD seems good once it's running as it generates a bit of heat. I've used the LCD and camera in temps down to -15F/-26C and no troubles. I kept a heat pack on the back of the RED 5.6" LCD. I experienced problems with shifting back focus, the lube in some zeiss primes I borrowed did not like the cold and the lenses tightened up to the point where I decided not to use them in fear of causing damage to them. My RED and Cooke lenses still worked fine, even though they tightened up noticeably as well. And the focus marks were off due to contraction in the cold.

The coldest I've operated with the EVF has been right at 25F, so not much colder than freezing. No problems, but the camera wasn't subjected to the cold directly. Camera was tripod mounted I had a cover on the camera that I would duck under to protect from blowing snow and it was trapping quite a bit of heat from the camera body and myself..
 
I don't get why people think this is such a big deal.

Every full up Film camera for the last 15 years has come with an "eyepiece heater" to keep the eyepiece from fogging. It's totally acceptable to use that kind of accessory. We just need a commercially available one that can plug into the Red.
 
I can't provide a "solution", which would have to be from those who designed the equipment. I can speculate on the problem- I understand Red's viewfinder uses a very high refresh rate display to generate R,G,B colors separately (as do some video projectors). As I recall, most LCD displays have a lag time that increases in cold weather. It makes sense that this particular display technology would show the effects of cold before more "standard" LCD viewfinders due to the unique demands it places on the refresh rate. If that is true, there may be no simple fix other than an integrated thermostat/heater (if well insulated, it might not need much power).
 
Mike Prevette said:
I don't get why people think this is such a big deal.

Every full up Film camera for the last 15 years has come with an "eyepiece heater" to keep the eyepiece from fogging. It's totally acceptable to use that kind of accessory. We just need a commercially available one that can plug into the Red.
Click to expand...

As much as I like Jay's straightforwardness I'm with Mike. I'm purely guessing but I think it's hard - if not impossible - for Red to fix this problem easily. I find the idea convincing that Red or a third party are adressing the EFV's cold weakness with a convenient USB heating system. We have that on Arris - why not on the Red.

BTW, my EFV starts banding at 5 degrees Celsius. That's not cold at all. I would love to see a Red made/approved device.

Hans
 
I expect Red will share with us information in this regard.
Only thing is we'll probably have to ring them and ask.
Be nice if they posted the full problem/symptoms as they know it as an comprehensive explanation is often better than a Red rep saying..."yeah, that's a known bug..keep it warm"..with all respects to the Red guys.
I understand Red may not want to post a 'Known Unfixed Bugs" thread but something along those lines would save people in the field a lot of grief.
Dave,

Ps: also I don't accept the notion of telling us the camera is okay to -20c and not mentioning the accessories i.e. drive, evf etc, aren't.
 
Jonas said:
@Jay
How is shouting WTF around here a solution/fix for the EVF issue?
Does this help you at the next shoot?

You are shocked, that in our discussion, where we are trying to get the problem solved for our next gig, instead of screaming bloody murder? Excuse me?

Or do you expect RED to recall all 3000 EVFs tomorrow, cause you just had a shitty shoot, on a gig where you should have covered your back? How do you think the 100+ owners from Switzerland are dealing with this issue for months now?

I kinda do not get your point here.
Is it about stating out very loud, that there is a problem with the EVF in the cold, so that you get an official reaction from RED on this forum? If so, I totally miss how that is more constructive, that what we do in the other thread.


@David
From what I observed, on our both EVFs, the issue starts at about 5C. It is a sneaky posterization and bending in the colors. It tends to go away, when the EVF heats up itself, so one might think its because of the booting process.

My theory is, that as with all other plasma/lcd technology, the crystals in the display start be slow in their response time and produce false colors, till they freeze in total. I had this at the EVF at -10C, where the EVF was almost dark-violett.

I do not think, it will happen in warm climate as well. It might be on the other side of the spectrum at 40C somewhere in a desert, but I do not recall any issues being discussed here, apart to keep the camera cold. I cannot say anything from my own experience, as I did not shoot in a desert with the RED.
Click to expand...

Jonas,

I think you and I have made our points. Debating with you is not why I started this thread, so I'll let you have the last word here. Suffice to say, I don't agree with all of what you said, but that's ok.

As for not liking workarounds, I love em.. But we shot in 32F weather and everything electronic worked EXCEPT the EVF. I think it should work down to 20F as most (90%) of pro gear does. RED certainly felt the BODY needed to work at that temp. So I would imagine the EVF should as well.

My shock at the other thread was how easily everyone said "EVF does not work in cold.. Oh well I can buy this or that to fix it!" I just felt like an important element was being overlooked, and that was "EVERY OTHER piece of RED gear is working in the cold, so why not the EVF, and why are people not asking for it to be repaired or upgraded?"

Until that happens, workarounds are a GREAT thing.

Jay

It's also worth noting that from the responses here, it's very clear the EVF does have problems at colder temps. So we now know it's not just a few of them.
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
As much as I like Jay's straightforwardness I'm with Mike. I'm purely guessing but I think it's hard - if not impossible - for Red to fix this problem easily. I find the idea convincing that Red or a third party are adressing the EFV's cold weakness with a convenient USB heating system. We have that on Arris - why not on the Red.

BTW, my EFV starts banding at 5 degrees Celsius. That's not cold at all. I would love to see a Red made/approved device.

Hans
Click to expand...
I understand your point. However I paid about $3,000 for this EVF when you include shipping. That's a lot of money.. In fact, not far off from now, I will be able to buy a SCARLET for about the same price.

I live in St. Louis.. We have this kind of cold for about 4-5 months out of the year. I feel I should have been informed of this problem BEFORE I purchased the EVF. I can honestly tell you that had I known about this, I would not have purchased it. I would have rented someone else's and waited until the next version.

If I lived in LA, I most likely would have bought it and not thought another thing about it. But I live here. So that said I would like too see one of the following solutions (Preference in order written):

1: Get a new EVF with this problem solved.
2: Return my EVF for a refund and wait until the next "cold tolerant" version is out
3: Get a "RED built" EVF warmer. Something made and certified by RED to keep the EVF operating properly.

I HATE it that I sound like Mr. Dickhead again, but this is important to me, and what you are reading is my passionate belief in my position, not cruelity or real anger.

I have intended to keep this EVF for a long time. Using for my RED one and my future Epic. But in it's current state, I cannot do that. I need it to work better.

I hope my pleas do not fall on deaf ears, and I hope Jim, Jarred, and the boys understand that I am not "Bitching" as much as I am saying "I've discovered a problem, please fix this".

If I could go back, perhaps I needed to find a way to approach this differently, but I am a little scared that since so many on here have already decided to "live with it" that RED may say, "well hell, if they are cool with it, we'll just leave it alone and fix it with Epic and Scarlet's EVF".

I don't want that to happen.

Jay
 
If you want to use your camera in the cold it's going to cost more. Period. It's always been that way. Back in the day you would have to get your Camera movement and tripod head regreased for the cold, and you paid tech to do it. It's just the way it is.

Look at this price list for aftermarket eyepiece heaters: http://www.cinetechonline.com/d.html

And those are about $1000 less than what Arri would charge you.

You bitch about the EVF costing you $3000!? I think the Arri Viewfinders for the 435 were like $11,000 for a metal tube with some optics in it and no heater.

So quit bitching about it and fix it! There are lots of fine, professional looking solutions out there that will work great.

Google "Eyepiece heater" and you will find a ton designed for telescopes, buy one shave of the original plug and ad a USB plug and be done with it.
 
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