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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Heat the EVF?! WTF?!

We shouldn't have to read REDUSER to find this stuff out.

We shouldn't have to read REDUSER to find this stuff out.

Jonas said:
@Jay
How is shouting WTF around here a solution/fix for the EVF issue?
Does this help you at the next shoot?

You are shocked, that in our discussion, where we are trying to get the problem solved for our next gig, instead of screaming bloody murder? Excuse me?

Or do you expect RED to recall all 3000 EVFs tomorrow, cause you just had a shitty shoot, on a gig where you should have covered your back? How do you think the 100+ owners from Switzerland are dealing with this issue for months now?

I kinda do not get your point here.
Is it about stating out very loud, that there is a problem with the EVF in the cold, so that you get an official reaction from RED on this forum? If so, I totally miss how that is more constructive, that what we do in the other thread.
Click to expand...

I don't own a VF yet so this isn't an issue for me and we may have a language issue you here so forgive me if I misunderstand your point. But I would like to defend Jay a bit: First, I have an issue with this "covered your back" deal: I don't remember having to have a backup camera in my Betacam and Ikegami EditcamII days, or even back when I had one of the first Panasonic Recams and Sony BVW3's and dragged them halfway around the world. And I was on a test team for sony's first 3 chip camera the DXC3000 so you can see that I have a fair amount of experience with 1st gen/new technology pro electronic cameras.

And if what you are saying is that Jay should have been reading some other thread to know about this issue that has been ongoing for months I have to take issue with that too. This forum has become increasingly more difficult to find good information for the many of us that have to do other things than monitor it constantly. As the amount of chaff increases, I find it becomes less useful so I am visiting less which sort of exacerbates the problem.

Many people have suggested that their needs to be some sort of official faq/issue/announcement site - or some sort of issuance of technical bulletins like we used to get with Son/Pan/Ike and since I have been here less frequently maybe there is something that I don't know about. But the point is that we shouldn't have to sort through hundreds of threads and thousands of posts to find this sort of thing out.

Jay's assumption that it would work within industry norm ranges and/or the camera's range - or it would have been clearly noted right on the device (EVF) if it didn't - is reasonable. If it seemed a little strong to you, well maybe Jay feels that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". I've backed off of some "squeaky wheel" posts in the last few months because frankly the "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude." policy concerns me and I have basically just decided I should just deal with whatever the REDONE is until the EpicX upgrade is available. But that isn't a particularly good situation and I can appreciate Jay trying to "push the puck up the ice" a bit so to speak if he thinks it will accelerate the process.

This wasn't meant to be a major rant - just how I feel sometimes. I haven't lost faith in RED overall - the REDONE is still the best bang for the buck for what I want to do (shoot the highest possible resolution/quality pictures for nature and stock footage use) and I think the Epic will be the best bang for the buck at the time. But I do think, (after careful consideration and pretty good understanding of what it takes to manufacture a product), that there are areas that could be better given the amount of time elapsed and the dollars generated.
 
@AquaVideoRed206

You have valid points there, not that Jay would need any help in defending himself. ... :-D

I am with you on the reduser noise of info. I tried to find some more editors for my "Purgatory Magazine" page, where I tried to link to interesting posts and products, that I find here. I use it as my personal notepad. If you care to help me out there, I would appreciate it very much. Please PM me, if so.

It is indeed getting harder and harder to find info here, and I agree, that that may have been the reason why Jay started out the way he did. And I have to admit, that he got attention.
 
I guess before we raise the conspiracy theories about Red should tell us first or Red is hiding this or.., I'd give then the benefit that this is the first time they're hearing all is and that as a startup company with a rapid development program, this is just one thing which is biting them...and us.
I think it vital that Red should come out with a cautionary tale (statement) on this, so every production using the EVF in the cold (or otherwise) doesn't waste was hours trying to fix it. I understand Red or other may be coming up with a fix, but still it's vital that we (Red/us) work together to identify the likely cause, communicate to all and deal with appropriately....
D
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
I don't own a VF yet so this isn't an issue for me and we may have a language issue you here so forgive me if I misunderstand your point. But I would like to defend Jay a bit: First, I have an issue with this "covered your back" deal: I don't remember having to have a backup camera in my Betacam and Ikegami EditcamII days, or even back when I had one of the first Panasonic Recams and Sony BVW3's and dragged them halfway around the world. And I was on a test team for sony's first 3 chip camera the DXC3000 so you can see that I have a fair amount of experience with 1st gen/new technology pro electronic cameras.

And if what you are saying is that Jay should have been reading some other thread to know about this issue that has been ongoing for months I have to take issue with that too. This forum has become increasingly more difficult to find good information for the many of us that have to do other things than monitor it constantly. As the amount of chaff increases, I find it becomes less useful so I am visiting less which sort of exacerbates the problem.

Many people have suggested that their needs to be some sort of official faq/issue/announcement site - or some sort of issuance of technical bulletins like we used to get with Son/Pan/Ike and since I have been here less frequently maybe there is something that I don't know about. But the point is that we shouldn't have to sort through hundreds of threads and thousands of posts to find this sort of thing out.

Jay's assumption that it would work within industry norm ranges and/or the camera's range - or it would have been clearly noted right on the device (EVF) if it didn't - is reasonable. If it seemed a little strong to you, well maybe Jay feels that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". I've backed off of some "squeaky wheel" posts in the last few months because frankly the "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude." policy concerns me and I have basically just decided I should just deal with whatever the REDONE is until the EpicX upgrade is available. But that isn't a particularly good situation and I can appreciate Jay trying to "push the puck up the ice" a bit so to speak if he thinks it will accelerate the process.

This wasn't meant to be a major rant - just how I feel sometimes. I haven't lost faith in RED overall - the REDONE is still the best bang for the buck for what I want to do (shoot the highest possible resolution/quality pictures for nature and stock footage use) and I think the Epic will be the best bang for the buck at the time. But I do think, (after careful consideration and pretty good understanding of what it takes to manufacture a product), that there are areas that could be better given the amount of time elapsed and the dollars generated.
Click to expand...

Thanks Aqua... You made my point much better than I did..

Jay
 
Wow! what a post.

My 2 cents worth, then I'll buggar off.
Ive read all of this blog and I'm looking at this from a very central aspect.
Subjective reply only, but still there needs to be perspective.

On set frustration and stress over something not working correctly is a pain.
Been there a few time in my career so I can understand it Jays frustration. Nothing worse than some old school focus puller or DOP looking down at you while you fiddle around trying to fix or solve a problem with your new fan dangle equipment.

ok.. moving on.

Then there is a manufacture of the RED product that is at the cutting edge of image technology and all of us have jumped onto this wagon to use these new cheap but amazing new products. Lets call this camera generation 1.

So I'm going to put this all into perspective.

Our Arri 435 kit, total worth without a lens system. $370,000.
In one year, we had several problems. eye piece fogging up is just normal..we live with it. Eye piece Focus ring jammed, due to cold. We had to send away for repairs. countless Mag jam's, Rollers loose causing film jitter..All shots needed stabilizing. Cost $15,000.. Battery spike, burnt out Arri 435 board. Lets not talk about dust in the gate, causing neg scratching..
Anyway the list goes on and on, Yet still I lived and still live with all the problems shooting film gives me. I get frustrated as do most of the crew.. but that's been life for the last 15years of shooting on film and it will be for the next couple of years until Film gets super seeded by digital capture. oh by the way I love ARRI cameras.

Our RED kit, total worth. without a lens system. $35,000. (Note the difference in price) We have had EVF's banding up in the cold..We went back to the LCD Monitors. Pictures from the Red still good. We have had booting issues with build 15 and 16, pictures still good. We have had firewire 800 ports die in drives, still we keep shooting. We had a battery charger die, we had another, we kept on shooting oooh and our on and off remote cable stopped working.. we had to press the red button before we took off in the heli... annoying.

Also, when my cameras went back to Arri for servicing or warranty work, Id get them back in 2 to 3 months, RED servicing or warranty work was 3 weeks max.

Also for the RENTAL out there, I get $1500 per day for my 435, and $800 per day for my RED... Remember the price differences between them.

So that's about that. We Get 35mm quality without the 35mm problems and pay $350,000 less for the privilege.

It's obvious the RED EVF is temperamental in the cold, It's caught us out quite a few times. But it does not destroy the final image. we just go too the LCD's. (to be honest, i prefer to use the lcd's even for hand held work.

In short, Bang for buck, RED wins the dollar per pixel race, dollar for sharpness race, dollar color depth & range race.
The EVF is dodgy in the cold... but it does not effect the final images which is the main thing.

Please don't compare the RED with a F900... cripes. we have both and the difference is chalk an cheese.
Red compares with 35mm chipped sized formats, like Genisis, F35, Arri film camers.

Jay, take a breath, in the short term you have to live with it, You have paid 10th of the price for something that works very well even if the EVF is a bit average. I'm sure RED once they have the technology to solve this little problem will solve it. But the EVF you have is going to stay as it is for the rest of it's long life.
I'll give you $1500 for it if its still in good condition if you can't stand it anymore. It is second hand and it dos not work in the cold. right?

Happy shooting and try to calm down. You have made your point to RED. Im sure. They have almost fixed 90% of all problems we have all given them already.
But always Remember for a camera kit that is 10th the price of everything else in that same quality image range. I'm sure you can cut RED a little bit of slack. don't you think.

If I was you Id by an electric sock for what $30 and you even get 2 for that.
And have it on set and call it protection.

Have a great year Jay...
 
I started this thread to make a specific point. I feel that between my posts, and with the help of some friends my point was made.

I was informed of a solution that will be out soon to address this problem, and while not my 1st choice, it will be a good solution.

Thanks for all for the help

Jay
 
Mike Prevette said:
If you want to use your camera in the cold it's going to cost more. Period.
Click to expand...

5 degree celsius is not cold at all. But you can still get weird banding going on.

I see your point, but 3,000 $ is quite nice amount of money for some, and yes, ARRI might be 10,000 but I thought one of the selling points for RED was to have amazing professional equipment at a fraction of the cost.

If the only solution is to fix it ourselves or to buy extra accesories, I'll do it. But I find it quite disappointing that it wasn't addressed before by RED (even if it was a technical specs statement that the EVF will start banding with 5 degrees celsius, i would have bought it anyway, but it would have been nice to know it beforehand.)
 
When you start grading your products on a curve, all it means is that you are using other people's failures as an excuse to explain your own.

RED set a new standard vs price with their products and service. And most if not all of us have jumped on board because of that. I can tell you that when I bought my RED package, I did not spend any time comparing it to an ARRI or anything else. Why? Cause I expected it to perform better than all of them.

This is RED's curse, and it's blessing.

It's what happens when you try to be the best.

Jay
 
In India our 1st AC who has around 12 years of experience said to me: "in India, the camera never jams"

there's an eye piece heater for ARRI, Mag Jams and film jitter are loaders fault in my eyes. Yeah dust in the gate is ARRIs fault :), get a can of air.

Sorry, but those problems you describe aren't real and don't happen on a professional set.

Sorry, this sounds a bit rude and offensive, but I didn't mean that. The RED is a great great camera, I am a proud owner, but I don't think it would've been able to shoot "The March of the Penguins" - YET!

I think what I heard recently someone saying was quite correct, that ARRI waits with their D20/1 until it's completely safe to release, RED is just a public open beta, not judging.

So at the end, I don't want to do the film/digital fight, not even on equipment level, I'd just say "horses for courses", right? ;)

now let's go out and shoot with aaton, arri, panavision, panasonic, red, sony, jvc, etc. etc. and be happy... don't forget kinor though :)
 
Well I guess like any thread there are some excellent comments coming from both sides and then some I won't even dignify with an answer.
The real way to look at this is through supply and demand. One just has too look at where the Red's have went in the world and then google for average temps.. I don't know the answer to that, but if RED does than that would sway them one way or the other to make changes to the EVF or not.

So here in Saskatchewan it is -36 C without windchill. Our winter is from November to March, 5 months, almost half the year. Our temperature isn't that chill all the time. Last week it was up to -5 C and that is balmy winter weather. We had our bathing suits on we were to hot.
No one wants to be outside shooting when it is like this, but when it is your lively hood and someone wants to pay you to shoot we want to try and make it work. So I say thanks to all those that have made educational comments and those that have shed light on the problems that they have had.
To those that just like to comment for the sake of comments there is a cure for your foot-in-mouth disorder, its called the "delete key". I couldn't resist, I must humor myself.
 
My EVF needs to warm up for the banding to go when the temperature is araound 5°C.

I would be interested in buying this protection.

Emmanuel
 
cold camera

cold camera

We just finished up a 15 day shoot for a provincial tourism organization with temperatures around -25 degrees celsius (-35C with the wind chill)

We protected the camera with hot pockets and a cover. Everything camera wise went fine with no issues, the LCD worked great with no problem, but like lots of other people the EVF eventually broke. It was resolved with a couple wool socks. Didn't look good, but either did the crew after the shoot ;-)

Since we were way out of standard operating conditions, it wasn't a surprise, but I thought I would share.

Something that did happen under standard operating conditions was the three legged horse we came across..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=381981#post381981
 
When I turn up on a shoot with new clients, I don't normally know anybody, just my Red. It can be an embarassing friend to arrive with at a party sometimes, but normally its made friends before we leave.

On the most recent shoot there were a miriad of problems, so i upgraded to b18 to try and give hope to the rest of the day. I normally try and crack a joke or two as I go to keep the mood upbeat, normally as the black shading takes place. This time I tried the line "I want you all to know, American asses will get kicked over this, and hard!", however now we have Obama elected I just got "But they're our friends now!" thrown back. I also got "Its not your fault, you didn't build it" and later on "Wow, there's still detail in that window.."

The point is, you've gotta try and keep a sense of humour. I've lost mine several times over the last two years, in fact, I think it emigrated somewhere for about a year. Professionals will tolerate problems, and professionals will fix them. My clients want high quality imagery, and the R1 delivers. They trust I'll keep it going somehow, and if the schedule slips a little, well that should be accounted for by one of the other professionals. Sure its scary, sure its embarassing (although my skin is thick), but just keep going.

Hopefully Red will deliver on the Epic FF Monstro bundle upgrade path, with basic modules thrown in like Epic X.. and we can all live on planet "reliable", in peace..
 
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