HDSDI Output -- 1080 to an External Deck?

[SF Geek]

Let the Red box be a third party project. It'll get done faster. Red should allow other companies into the fold. They already have so much on their plate.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Let the Red box be a third party project. It'll get done faster. Red should allow other companies into the fold. They already have so much on their plate.

Have you been talking to Ted, Deanan and Stuart's wives?

Come on ... they are just getting started.

They LIVE for an unrealistic challenge.

Obviously, AJA has 75+% of this technology "good to go" - so, it's NOT a "ground zero to white board" adventure -

 

[Michael Brennan]

Red Tv

Red Tv

As previously demonstrated, 720p is second rate for monitoring, certianly for a 4k camera it is a step down in functionality compared to a 1920x1080 camera.

In respect to TV specs...
HDSDI video audio TC inputs and outputs and features should be same spec as Sony and Panasonic camcorders.

I'm not sure 4:4:4 is necessary if it is troublesome.
Default gamma 0.45 adjustable form 0.35 to 0.55.
Detail, matrix, SMPTE bars.
Not sure you'll need an auto knee?
Liniear and log outputs.
Perhaps two modes of operation.
Mode A outputs gamma, colour, detail corrected pictures for TV use.
Mode B outputs flat RAWish looking image aka Viper, low noise since there is no gamma or little other video processing.
So now RED beats Viper at its own game. (plenty of Viper guys have SRW1s so RED can fit into their business in an instant and they get rental on their expensive SRW1s. Post houses with SR decks will like this idea too)


Digital Praxis would probably be delighted to build RED gamma curves, especially if 12 bit gamma processing is available.
Sony f series when in user gamma mode is reduced to 9bit! So RED can beat Sony at its own game.


The Sony camera (not camcorder) HDC 1500 is the only non bayer 1920x1080 camera with 60p (new Panasonic 3000 camera can't do it)
There is no compact camcorder that can do 1920x1080 at 60p.
1920x1080 60p will become a transmission and or display standard eventually (say 10 years)

60p output via dual stream will match F23, Genesis and D20 specs which harmonises with SRW1 60p 4:2:2 recording.

Choice of scaled or cropped image from 4k, if only allowed one option then scaled.
Two 4:2:2 outputs.
One output somewhere with viewfinder info, essential for remote head TV work. And/or a remote lcd with monitor info.9sticking it down a bnc into any monitor is bottom line)

Remote control of menue and Iris is a usefull feature for 4k work for those who will still want a remote DIT station to nail exposure and fine tune lighting to a decent monitor (since it is easy to overblow highlights in RED as in other CMOS/CCD cameras).

Multicamera use adds more techie stuff, mainly remote ccu control of camera settings using knobs and buttons rather than a GUI.
I note that some camera manufacturers have integrated their CCUs into industrial slomo cameras so it is possible to have a joint venture for RED OB use.
This could be a ccu that does the processing rather than in camera. In fact for multicamera the optical fiber output from camera to CCU is another option with all "TV" controls happening at the ccu. Could even make the ccu have multiple inputs from numerous REDs.
100fps 1920x1080 with good ccu control and fiber link to existing hard disk recorders as well as optional in camera recording and replay is not a small market.

Some of these features are useful for RED in cinema mode.

A box that converts R3D files to HDSDI is a good idea.Getting all the features in the camera even better!
Panasonic have explored the box concept for P2 players/recorders and taking note of their feature set in respect to FF REC RR Pause and Play controls, small monitor screen and outputs is a good start. Such a box could clone flash cards too.

Will be very handy to give director/pa a flash card that he/she can play on a portable player, rather than use the camera or laptop.


Anyway most of the above is telling granny how to suck eggs, no?



Mike Brennan

 

[Michael Brennan]

Add 60p

Add 60p

Here goes - THE RED BOX basics (if well received, I'll post the "advanced")

caveat #1 - I am not an engineer - so this may be really off -
caveat #2 - I have had three glasses of red wine

Before we talk about outputs and features, let's talk about the image processing.

Let's say we have one SCALE and PROCESSING engine just for the video signal output - let's call that the "video out engine" or VOE.

Let's say we have another "engine" that also decodes the REDCODE RAW .r3d file and scales it. It always scales to 1920 x 1080 - 16 x 9 aspect. Let's call it the RPE (Redcode Processing Engine)

So, if the .r3d file is NOT 16x9 (it's 2:1 - yeah, I know - like we needed another aspect ratio) you would have a choice (setting in the RED BOX MENU) to FIT TO HIGHT (crops left and right) or FIT TO WIDTH (which puts the entire 2:1 inside the 16x9 frame)

What the RPE is doing is getting the frames of the .r3d file into a progressive 1920 x 1080 frame buffer so the VOE can take over -

The VOE always works from the 1920 x 1080 progressive frame (primary format)- which is one of three frame rates - 23.98fps, 24fps, 25 fps and can down-convert to a SECONDARY FORMAT -

The VOE can add a pull down pull down. So VOE can take the 1920 x 1080 image and:
1) cross convert to 720/59.94
2) output 1080i
3) output SD PAL (letterbox, anamorphic, center-crop)
4) output SD NTSC (letterbox, anamorphic, center-crop)

so, we should have:
525i 29.97
625i 25
720p 50
720p 59.94
720p 60
1080i 25
1080i 29.97
1080i 30
1080sf 23.98
1080sf 24

The VOE can ADD a ASPECT RATIO MASK. 1:85, 2:40 (this mask is added prior to DOWNCONVERT to SD)

FEATURES:

two SDI outs:
single 4:2:2 HD-SDI
dual 4:4:4 HD-SDI
SD - SDI

always, embedded TC and embedded audio - 4 channels - (max available in an .r3d file)

LIVE DOWNS-STREAM KEYER for WATERMARKS and TEXT OVERLAY
LIVE TIMECODE OVERLAY

RS422 deck control

AES/EBU audio out - 4 channels

additional META-DATA embedded via ANSI/SMPTE 291M

INPUTS:

for .r3d files:

eSata
LEMO for REDDRIVE
FW800 for a standard FW drive
CF slots - 4 total w/rollover

VIDEO OUTS: (all active)

Digital:
SD and HD-SDI, SMPTE-259/292/296 (2 outputs)
HDMI

Analog:
Composite/S Video (Y/C): NTSC, NTSCJ, PAL
12 bit D/A, 8x oversampling

SD Component: SMPTE/EBU N10, Betacam 525 line, Betacam 525J, RGB
12 bit D/A, 8x oversampling

HD Component: YPbPr, RGB
12-bit D/A, 2x oversampling

I have ideas on managing color "looks" as well if there is interest in me continuing my Red Box babble -

Very good list.
Love the "fit to height" option.

Add 1080 60p to the frame rates for SRW use and other 60p kit becoming available.
Plan for 1080 90p as SRW1 or other Sony kit may do this in the future.

Add remote control of iris, roll/replay and menue. Full ccu control box with nobs not GUI wil get OB boys attention.
One BNC HDSDI output in addition to HDMI with menue/viewfinder overlay.


Mike Brennan

 

[Nick Shaw]

I think there are two products people seem to be talking about here, and there may be a bit of confusion. The first (which I think is what Offhollywood is suggesting - am I right?) is a playback device, which takes CF cards or Red Drives and emulates a VTR. The second is a live CCU, which takes a RAW feed from the camera, either via the RAW port or David Newman's RAW over dual HDSDI 'cheat' and provides processing and outputs not available on the camera.

Both are very good ideas, but the discussions probably need to be split into two threads to avoid confusion.

One suggestion I would addd for the functionality of either device would be the option to produce the 1920x1080 from a 3840x2160 crop of the 4k, rather than a scale. I expect this to be how I will generate my 1080p in software most of the time (whole number scaling) with the option to go back to the 4k for a slight reframe where necessary. It would be great if any hardware box had the option to do the same.

While I'm putting in requests, I'd love there to be a version of the QuickTime codec, that also did this 3840x2160 crop, so producing a 1080p proxy rather than 2k. This would mean adding a settings control panel for the codec (like flip4mac has) to select options.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

option to produce the 1920x1080 from a 3840x2160 crop of the 4k, rather than a scale. I expect this to be how I will generate my 1080p in software most of the time (whole number scaling) with the option to go back to the 4k for a slight reframe where necessary.

curious here, why use 3840 x 2160 crop as opposed to a straight over-sample from a 16 x 9 full 4K image?

 

[Andrew M.]

Why would you need the crop?
Think about FOV and DOV you will loose by doing just that.
Rob Lohman just posted that via RAW port you can get 2540p instead 4K usual 2048p
20% over-sampling of 4K by capturing full sensor and then downresing it to 4K will make IMHO big difference for the final quality of the 4K.
Remember it is not RGB 4K sensor, it is Bayer sensor.

 

[TimPipher]

Mark from offhollywood -- love your ideas -- but this would result in live outputs to an external deck/monitor/switcher etc. (rather than it being a playback device), correct?

Also, do you think this would be possible in the near term? I'm grasping at anything to give me some hope!

 

[Paul Hazlett]

Bring it and I'll bang it. I want a Red Box.

you are still talking about camera equipment....right Mark?

 

[Paul Hazlett]

Very good list.
Love the "fit to height" option.

Add 1080 60p to the frame rates for SRW use and other 60p kit becoming available.
Plan for 1080 90p as SRW1 or other Sony kit may do this in the future.

Add remote control of iris, roll/replay and menue. Full ccu control box with nobs not GUI wil get OB boys attention.
One BNC HDSDI output in addition to HDMI with menue/viewfinder overlay.


Mike Brennan

I would rather see things like lens control and shading as an add-on box
so those who do not need these features could just get the basics

 

[mex]

The CCU track is very interesting and important. Including potent de-bayer.
To make it more interesting I want to see 4K live out - there are only two cameras alive that can do 4K live in the world and we need to relieve them.
Longing for the raw port - that's how I have ordered my camera.

 

[Nick Shaw]

curious here, why use 3840 x 2160 crop as opposed to a straight over-sample from a 16 x 9 full 4K image?

Just because a 50% scale is less likely to produce scaling artefacts, and also because there will be some 'overscan' in the 4k to help with eg stabilization.

Certainly from my testing with Jim's posted 2k clip, scaling to 1920x1080 in Redcine (in the shot pane, not the output one) produces visible scaling artefacts. 93.75% is not an ideal scaling factor, and I would think 50% is better than 46.875%.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Just because a 50% scale is less likely to produce scaling artefacts, and also because there will be some 'overscan' in the 4k to help with eg stabilization.

Certainly from my testing with Jim's posted 2k clip, scaling to 1920x1080 in Redcine (in the shot pane, not the output one) produces visible scaling artefacts. 93.75% is not an ideal scaling factor, and I would think 50% is better than 46.875%.

Hmmmmmm ... I need to think about that - but I am not 100% sure I agree. I want full frame 4K - 16 x 9 to 1920 x 1080 - I can't imagine that wouldn't be a better image then crop and scale? Graeme?

 

[Anders Holck]

I believe the deal is that an even 2:1 scale is MUCH easier to do and a lot less taxing.

In the dawn of time a 4k>2k scale then crop to 1080p was mentioned by some RED members when discussing the 1080p RGB onboard and the (RIP) 1080p master output. But I believe that was due to on board processing power needed for a filtered 4k scale to 1080p.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I believe the deal is that an even 2:1 scale is MUCH easier to do and a lot less taxing.

I get that. But it's not a 2:1 world is it?

 

[Anders Holck]

No, not it isn't :-(

 

[Stuart English]

1080p from 4K

1080p from 4K

The ideal path from a high quality but simple filter point of view is a 2:1 scale from 4K to 2K (4096 x 2304 to 2048 x 1152) then a crop (pan/scan) to either 1920 x 1080 (HD) or 2048 x 1080 (DCI) pixels.

4096 x 2304 to 1920 x 1080 can be done, you just need a lot more filter taps, hence its more expensive in hardware and slower in software.

 

[GlennChan]

The attachments aren't the greatest examples, but sort of shows what kind of different results you might get.

The following example shows:
Original zone plate test pattern image is 256x256.
Resizing using "bicubic sharper" in Photoshop (this is not necessarily the ideal approach, nor the same algorithm Red would use). The edges are screwed up... ignore that (edge conditions may not be handled correctly in Photoshop).

The left image shows the original cropped to 200x200, then rescaled to 100x100. Rescaling is with a nice 2:1 ratio.
The right image shows the image rescaled to 100x100 right off the bat. Rescaling is with a 64:25 ratio.

(Ok you know what that isn't the best example.)

 

[GlennChan]

Ok examples with bilinear resampling. (This is not that good of a resampling method. Again, these are not the best examples.)

But you can see that when you rescale by the nice 2:1 ratio, you get less weirdness.

2- Given that it's cheaper/faster to implement the 2:1 scaling... I'd think that it is much more preferable (plus you get the benefit of lookaround in the viewfinder). I think this is a case where simple is hands down better.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

The ideal path from a high quality but simple filter point of view is a 2:1 scale from 4K to 2K (4096 x 2304 to 2048 x 1152) then a crop (pan/scan) to either 1920 x 1080 (HD) or 2048 x 1080 (DCI) pixels.

I could live with that - but I sure would like to see what a high quality hardware 4096 x 2304 to 1920 x 1080 looks like.

hence its more expensive in hardware

How much more expensive?
Hundreds or thousands?