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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HDSDI Output -- 1080 to an External Deck?

1080p output

1080p output

[QUOTE ] Do you mean the 1080p HD-SDI output will become available when 1080p recording becomes a reality? [/QUOTE]

Yes that is what I meant, if the camera is recording 1080p, then its easy to generate a 1080p HD-SDI output.

I'm still interested to understand what it is specifically everyone intends to do with 1080p HD-SDI outputs BTW .. to build up a check list for functions that would be necessary to support the intended applications.

Mark I understand yours...thanks for that concept.

Genlock (via tri-level sync) we have.
 
I have request from a prodcution company interested in renting my Red to redord to HDCAM-SR, because that is what they're used, equuipped to handle and their trusted workflow. Hopefully they will come round and understand the advantages of Red Raw, but until then, I would like that function to be available. Also, live output to an HD projector is something I think I would use occasionnaly.

Cheers,
Damien
 
I'm surprised I overlooked this issue, as I check the boards daily, but it never occured to me that the loss of 1080 RGB recording would also mean the loss of any form of 1080 over HD-SDI live out.

As I mentioned in another thread, I was in the real world situation (if I had my RED, that is...) of taking full advantage of dual link recording on Monday and Tuesday. Since the client owns one of these decks, it would have been a match made in heaven...

REDCODE may be great and grand, but it's still a bit of a science project, and in the near future live out to high quality record decks or NLE's is essential, IMO.

I'll let the deck do the talking...
HDCAM_SR.jpg
 
An important factor though is what the quality of the debayer for a dual-link HD-SDI output would be. Since my 8-core Mac Pro takes about a second a frame to render 1080p from 4k in Redcine, I have to wonder whether shortcuts might be necessary for a real-time conversion in camera. If the quality were only the same as you get from the 2k proxys, that would not really be enough. Although the proxy may be adequate for some (perhaps SD) online uses, it does exhibit a tendency to aliasing and Moiré patterns, which a full quality decode does not have.

I'm not suggesting this would be the case (how would I know) but just saying it might be an issue if it were.
 
Getting a live, real-time de-bayer out that matches what can be done in post is a mighty task, one with which Phantom, Dalsa and others struggle. I'm sure that Team Red has been working hard on the matter but it is no small feat. For our clients using the Phantom cameras, I generally try to discourage the use of the HD-SDI feed as their final output, even if the resolution is the same, because of the problems that can creep into a real-time de-bayer. I refer to it as "the world's greatest videotap." Of course, armed with this knowledge many clients have very successfully used the HD-SDI feed, as can be witnessed in many sporting events such as the Superbowl and HBO Boxing. But do know that you are asking for a lot here.

Mitch Gross
Technical Director of Rental
Abel Cine Tech
 
Mitch Gross said:
Getting a live, real-time de-bayer out that matches what can be done in post is a mighty task, one with which Phantom, Dalsa and others struggle.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is a concern, one which myself and others have brought up a number of times during development.

I suppose a clue to the potential quality is how well the de-bayer is happening with the existing 720p out, as the behind the scenes processing magic would be the same... anyone working with the RED currently care to comment on how fine detail and patterns are resolved with the 720p display? The closest I've heard to a review was a comment by Scott Billups saying it resembed good looking F900 material...
 
Stuart said: "I'm still interested to understand what it is specifically everyone intends to do with 1080p HD-SDI outputs BTW .. to build up a check list for functions that would be necessary to support the intended applications".

Stuart:

In my case, I intend to put 3 REDs in a studio configuration, switch them using an HD switcher, and record to a Wafian 2 deck.

As a side note, everything will also be running through an Orad virtual studio system and an Ultimatte chromakeyer, compositing the virtual backgrounds live.

I also intend to offer live feeds from this set-up for broadcast.

If I can't get 1080 output recording from RED in the near future, would good 720P output recording be possible, perhaps at the same level as a Varicam?

I know on the 720 monitor output other data and info. is also on the screen. Could this be switched off for recording?
 
I am really not sure why there are so many that want a 4K digital cinema camera to process and output live broadcast 1080P. I understand expense but this is a cinema camera with some capabilities to output a monitor signal. To produce a camera that does everything the Red crew would have to make too many compromises and the camera would do nothing well. Take a look at high end 1080 cameras and all the live processing they do to make a broadcast image. These same cameras look less than great when upressed to film but with enough post processing they can almost look like a cinema image. In my own mind if you want a live switchable broadcast camera then that is what you should buy not a Red Digital Cinema Camera.

I consider myself lucky to get a camera that produces AWESOME 4K images for less than $1,000,000. Even luckyer to get a camera that can output 2K windowed. I can always downsample the 4K image to 2K or 1080P in post, since the camera isn't really designed to do that in real time.

I think the camera Jim had in mind is a Digital Cinema Camera not a broadcast camera so that is what the team went after. There are so many that already manufacture broadcast cameras why compete with them?
 
Think about this for moment -

How do you get one days worth of .r3d footage to tape in RT with TC?

SCRATCH?
Nope.
Nvidia 4500 HDSDI (what we have) does not support VITC and VANC - the new 4600/5600SDI will - but hold your breath for a new API - good luck with that -

FCP + KONA (or ioHD)?
Nope.
FCP/Kona outputs TC from sequence. Sure, you can set you sequence TC to match ONE CLIP - and you'd be laying off one clip at a time.

Solution?
1) Red builds THE RED BOX. A redcode "deck" - with "optimized" hardware decode - my latest obsession

2) Dirty Hack - Payback from the camera through ioHD - assuming TC is embedded in the preview out - last time I tested, it was not.
 
AlienFX said:
Actually, that's what I'm looking into making it's just that I don't have much experience when it comes to computer software.... I could build the thing in a physical sense, but I could get the software that needs to be on it to work. You would basically need something like REDCINE LIVE so you could pull the 4k to 1080P.
Click to expand...

Well ... you would need to be an engineer and have access to all that is RED. Pretty sure you don't. IMHO this is a job for the Red Team and some love from AJA.
 
marsRover said:
Good chance they won't be "very big" in the future with that attitude.
Click to expand...
Well ... you can wait until they "get it" while someone else provides them with services - or you can accommodate their needs and "steer" them towards the light while you get paid ... I choose that latter.
 
I think a lot of people here who don't see the value in a tape based instant proxy haven't worked "in the trenches" so to speak of modern projects.

I work a lot on commercial projects both big and small. On the big ones we have more gear and toys than any feature shoot I've ever seen, and on the small ones we still look like a well off Indie. In both cases the only constant of the last few years has been the production or agency wanting to cut immediately. Sometimes that means cutting off a DV tape from the VTR guy in the van on the way to the airport after wrapping. Or processing over night , going into transfer in the morning and cutting in the afternoon.

I can see in a lot of cases cutting right off a nice 1080, doing a tape to tape, or a batch conform of the 4k material and then making your final output. The time saved by a scaled usable 1080 tape would be HUGE on small productions. Transferring from 4k to a 1080 format takes LONGER than capturing a tape, and it will cost more because the person who is doing it will most likely cost more. Producers HATE that. As far as producers know, the 1080 looks just as good as the 4k when they are both downsampled to 720 for station delivery.

_mike
 
Mike Prevette said:
I think a lot of people here who don't see the value in a tape based instant proxy haven't worked "in the trenches" so to speak of modern projects.

I work a lot on commercial projects both big and small. On the big ones we have more gear and toys than any feature shoot I've ever seen, and on the small ones we still look like a well off Indie. In both cases the only constant of the last few years has been the production or agency wanting to cut immediately. Sometimes that means cutting off a DV tape from the VTR guy in the van on the way to the airport after wrapping. Or processing over night , going into transfer in the morning and cutting in the afternoon.

I can see in a lot of cases cutting right off a nice 1080, doing a tape to tape, or a batch conform of the 4k material and then making your final output. The time saved by a scaled usable 1080 tape would be HUGE on small productions. Transferring from 4k to a 1080 format takes LONGER than capturing a tape, and it will cost more because the person who is doing it will most likely cost more. Producers HATE that. As far as producers know, the 1080 looks just as good as the 4k when they are both downsampled to 720 for station delivery.

_mike
Click to expand...

Exactly. And you will not get "tape" out of the dailies requirements on a studio feature film for a while.
 
RCFisher said:
I am really not sure why there are so many that want a 4K digital cinema camera to process and output live broadcast 1080P. I understand expense but this is a cinema camera with some capabilities to output a monitor signal. To produce a camera that does everything the Red crew would have to make too many compromises and the camera would do nothing well. Take a look at high end 1080 cameras and all the live processing they do to make a broadcast image. These same cameras look less than great when upressed to film but with enough post processing they can almost look like a cinema image. In my own mind if you want a live switchable broadcast camera then that is what you should buy not a Red Digital Cinema Camera.

I consider myself lucky to get a camera that produces AWESOME 4K images for less than $1,000,000. Even luckyer to get a camera that can output 2K windowed. I can always downsample the 4K image to 2K or 1080P in post, since the camera isn't really designed to do that in real time.

I think the camera Jim had in mind is a Digital Cinema Camera not a broadcast camera so that is what the team went after. There are so many that already manufacture broadcast cameras why compete with them?
Click to expand...

And I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want 1080p output. It doesn't mean that you have to use it exclusively -- it just opens up the camera for so much more. Most people taking advantage of a 1080 output for studio use are also going to use it for 4K or 2K on location.

You say there are other cameras out there suitable for studio. There are also other cameras out there for digital cinema. Due to RED's supposed 1080 outputs, it would've/should've been good for both, and that's why I reserved my three.
 
Softly Softly Catchee Monkey

Softly Softly Catchee Monkey

TimPipher said:
And I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want 1080p output. It doesn't mean that you have to use it exclusively -- it just opens up the camera for so much more. Most people taking advantage of a 1080 output for studio use are also going to use it for 4K or 2K on location.

You say there are other cameras out there suitable for studio. There are also other cameras out there for digital cinema. Due to RED's supposed 1080 outputs, it would've/should've been good for both, and that's why I reserved my three.
Click to expand...

Here Here.
We don't live in an ideal world where clients will necessarily adopt the best technical approach or even the cheapest.
Politics, fear of the new, inertia and vested interest are common factors to overcome to the pioneers introducing new technology/kit/workflow.

I've just come off a three week shoot where the production team own their own SRW1s, but no cameras. (it is a 18 month project) They also have their own 1920x1080 monitor because they have had their fingers burnt relying on 720p monitoring, the Panasonic 17 inch is popular but only 720 lines.

RED has neither 1080 monitoring nor HDSDI.


I'm testing the new P2 3000 camera from Panasonic now.
Since AVC I codec doesnt quite yet talk to an Apple I've been using its full spec HDSDI output, very handy until it all comes together.

In three years time there will be less use for HDSDI output, in the interim it will be a useful bridge.

Also replaying 120fps out of RED at 50i/60i direct into an Outside Broadcast has got the attention of more than a few companies who currently pay six figures for a 180i (90p) camera.

Those who say that RED is this or RED is that are expressing a blinkered and conservative point of view, surprising since the original concept from the design team themselves was for a camera that could be flexible and do existing HDTV as well as redefining it.
Why not a 4k camera with 35mm depth of field as anchor camera in a news studio?

The majority of DPs and cameramen worldwide do not regularly shoot 35mm, in Europe Super 16mm and digibeta are still in use for drama, pop promos and commercials.

That 4k is an option is superb but it doesn't mean that 1080p will disappear overnight.
A recent BSC run HD forum including a camera shoot out didnt even talk about 4K they concentrated on current HD cameras and 16mm grain reduction!


A softly softly catchee monkee approach works in some parts of the world.

Having said that I remain to be convinced that RED, in the time frame, can put together the combination a user friendly menu and hardware that enables DPs to compress as much as possible of the raw image into HDSDI bandwidth and output for grading later, as well as a setup where the camera delivers sparkling HD for live work.


And since mention of future or current features is ratified by Red by stating "specifications can and will change" you'll excuse my hard nosed attitude to the matter.




Mike Brennan
 
I have met Tim Pipher and he is as passionate as anybody about everything Red and I can understand his disappointment if it turns out the camera will not fit into his workflow. I think 1080P was originally in the format options correct? I might be remembering that incorrectly, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. It still might end up in there as the folks from Red have indicated but it does seem like less of a priority at this point, which has an impact on those who want to shoot it.

Having said that, and in no disrespect to Tim or any others who need these options, I think the focus does need to be on getting the main set of features enabled. Viewfinder, lens mount, audio, Redcine, etc are all way up there on the priority list and I believe that's where Red's attention needs to be. I'm hoping to have all of those things working close to flawless when I receive my camera. Could I use the 1080P options, absolutely. But I need 2K and 4K working first and foremost.

I think Red will deliver on their commitment to providing a 1080/720 firmware option. I think it's a timing thing. They are up to their eyeballs as it is right now.

Tim, you have a cool business happening down there and I'm hoping that this all works out for you because it was great talking with you at NAB. This is all bleeding edge technology and sometimes the waiting game can hurt, but in the long run I think you'll be able to integrate these cameras into your workflow. I think this is a worthwhile thread to keep going and it will help Stuart and others on the team to know what people are looking for in regards to these other formats.

Steve
 
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