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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HDSDI Output -- 1080 to an External Deck?

1080p output

1080p output

offhollywood said:
Think about this for moment -

How do you get one days worth of .r3d footage to tape in RT with TC?

Solution?
1) Red builds THE RED BOX. A redcode "deck" - with "optimized" hardware decode - my latest obsession
Click to expand...

So to continue this thought experiment; assuming that this existed, here are some questions for everybody -

What do you want in terms of a 1080p HD-SDI output - single or dual link - i.e how many of each, what color space 4:4:4 or 4:2:2, frame rate(s) 23.98, 24.00 and what else, do we use 1.5GHz HD-SDI or 3GHz, output at 10 bit "log" or 10 bit "linear" - and what default gamma law do you want us to use in each of these cases, audio channels - at what sample rate and what bit depth, time code tracks and metadata - how many time code tracks, assignment of the two time code tracks to VITC and LTC, definition of user bits in time code, method of carrying the metadata in the HD-SDI stream. Then there are the video processing questions - do you need Film Gamma Curves, R G B Gains and Offsets, Edge Detail etc? Do you want this 1080p to be a center crop of the middle 3840 x 2160 pixels or a scale of the full 4096 x 2304. What should be done when the camera is recording at (variable) frames rates other than 23.98 or 24.00 (or 25.00 or 29.97) or in speed ramp or timelapse modes. Do you want burned in timecode and reel/clip name? RS422 control or other - what protocol for what edit controller with what "deck" emulation?

Feedback is welcome -
 
How's that for customer service? Stuart, you guys are the best.

Steve
 
"Finally, if RED can't activate the HD-SDI feature, what do you think the chances would be of a third party figuring something out, much the same way Evertz did for the original F900's before Sony added an output?"


an external converter has been discussed akin to the new AJA portable, but I don't no of anyone actively pursuing such a box. I am not sure anyone right now would spend the money on R&D and product development for such a small
market.
 
Stuart English said:
So to continue this thought experiment; assuming that this existed, here are some questions for everybody...
-
Click to expand...

I can not answer half of these questions, but what I would hope for is better than the industry standard for HD but still able to intergrate into the recently
spend HD infastructure of most networks. there has to be a bonus for people to go with the red with extrenal converter.

Stuart, how big would you think a box like this would be? I am imagining a 3
rack unit piece.
 
Stuart English said:
Do you want this 1080p to be a center crop of the middle 3840 x 2160 pixels or a scale of the full 4096 x 2304.
Feedback is welcome -
Click to expand...

I'll be grateful at this point for anything I can get, but I'd prefer a scale of the 4096 X 2304 -- that way I could effectively use the RED 18-50 mm zooms in the studio.

I'd also like to have in-camera processing so good color will be available for live broadcasting or live to tape recording.

My plan is to record in studio to a Wafian 2 machine.
 
Stuart English said:
So to continue this thought experiment; assuming that this existed, here are some questions for everybody -

What do you want in terms of a 1080p HD-SDI output - single or dual link - i.e how many of each, what color space 4:4:4 or 4:2:2, frame rate(s) 23.98, 24.00 and what else, do we use 1.5GHz HD-SDI or 3GHz, output at 10 bit "log" or 10 bit "linear" - and what default gamma law do you want us to use in each of these cases, audio channels - at what sample rate and what bit depth, time code tracks and metadata - how many time code tracks, assignment of the two time code tracks to VITC and LTC, definition of user bits in time code, method of carrying the metadata in the HD-SDI stream. Then there are the video processing questions - do you need Film Gamma Curves, R G B Gains and Offsets, Edge Detail etc? Do you want this 1080p to be a center crop of the middle 3840 x 2160 pixels or a scale of the full 4096 x 2304. What should be done when the camera is recording at (variable) frames rates other than 23.97 or 24.00 (or 25.00 or 29.97) or in speed ramp or timelapse modes. Do you want burned in timecode and reel/clip name? RS422 control or other - what protocol for what edit controller with what "deck" emulation?

Feedback is welcome -
Click to expand...

I'll get my notebook from the office in a few hours -

UPDATE

I just found this option in ioHD control panel -

Use QuickTime Timecode—when checked, this directs Io HD to output timecode
from the QuickTime timecode track.

So, I will test this with some .r3d wrappers in a few hours when I head to the office ... It can't be this easy ...
 
1080p output

1080p output

macgregor said:
I need to be able to have a 1080p image for the director in the set. Right now that is not possible. HDsdi 1080p24 4:2:2 is ok for a big set monitor. How are we supposed to watch the images?[/
Click to expand...

I'm puzzled, so why does he need to see 1080p resolution images macgregor - have you / has he seen the PREVIEW HD-SDI 720p images as we displayed them on a 50" plasma at NAB? What is he expecting to see different?
 
phaz said:
"Finally, if RED can't activate the HD-SDI feature, what do you think the chances would be of a third party figuring something out, much the same way Evertz did for the original F900's before Sony added an output?"


an external converter has been discussed akin to the new AJA portable, but I don't no of anyone actively pursuing such a box. I am not sure anyone right now would spend the money on R&D and product development for such a small
market.
Click to expand...

You may be right, but my guess is that there will be more REDs out there in the coming months (3,000 +) than there were F900's when the Evertz device for F900 first came out.
 
Stuart English said:
I'm puzzled, so why does he need to see 1080p resolution images macgregor - have you / has he seen the PREVIEW HD-SDI 720p images as we displayed them on a 50" plasma at NAB? What is he expecting to see different?
Click to expand...

Stuart:

Would it be possible for RED to add a switch to turn off the information/data on the Preview HD-SDI 720p monitor output to allow for 720p output recording?

If you could, would those images be in the quality neighborhood of Varicam recording?
 
Stuart English said:
I'm puzzled, so why does he need to see 1080p resolution images macgregor - have you / has he seen the PREVIEW HD-SDI 720p images as we displayed them on a 50" plasma at NAB? What is he expecting to see different?
Click to expand...

300+ lines of detail. Depending on your aspect ratio, that can actually be a significant % difference. At Offhollywood we have some rooms with Sony Multi-format monitors that have 800 lines of resolution. You can feed it 1080 (via component) - I have been burned a few times by QC'ing on those monitors instead of a 1080 display.

Now, I side-step this issue by telling clients I can show them 4K pixel-for-pixel on set (via REDCINE) a few minutes later - another reason I do not agree with the camp that is trying to position REDALERT as the "on set app" and "REDCINE" as the "pro post workflow tool" - that's just wrong - REDCINE is what we want on set - (unless you want to add tons of features to REDALERT.)

There other big thing here is that this is SHOW BUSINESS.
PERCEPTION.
1080 is HD. 720 is "HD light".

I think it's hard for people to swallow this amazing 4K camera - and it spits out "HD light"?

It is much easier in film to make the argument as video taps have been crappy quality for so long and everyone knows they can't monitor "film" - but the HD world has been preaching "what you see is what you get" for a while now - it's just hard for people to adjust to "you get MUCH more than you see" -

Again, I do NOT need 1080 out of the camera. But I know LOTS of your potential customers are gonna squeal 'till you give it to 'em.
 
1080p Output

1080p Output

offhollywood said:
It is much easier in film to make the argument as video taps have been crappy quality for so long and everyone knows they can't monitor "film" - but the HD world has been preaching "what you see is what you get" for a while now - it's just hard for people to adjust to "you get MUCH more than you see"
Click to expand...

Well that is exactly the issue, we provide an HD resolution video tap. It isn't possible to show the client 4K resolution on-set - 1080p gets you closer (as long as you can find a 1080p monitor) but if you treat this camera as a Digital Cinema Camera the 720p EVF and video tap is just fine. Or treat it as an HD camera, and shoot 1080p, record 1080p, monitor 1080p - that all make sense.
 
Stuart English said:
I'm puzzled, so why does he need to see 1080p resolution images macgregor - have you / has he seen the PREVIEW HD-SDI 720p images as we displayed them on a 50" plasma at NAB? What is he expecting to see different?
Click to expand...
Stuart. If he is finishing 1080p then he can check focus on set to know what he got before moving to the next shot. It was repeated over and over that there would be 1080p 4:2:2 hdsdi out dual link before Nab and after Nab. Hardly a surprise that when people went to use it and it wasn't there they were surprised. Now you say that it 's dependant on 1080p filming, but that wasn't mentioned when you post-poned 1080p recording, allthough I wondered about real time 1080p when redcode rgb and 1080p was post-poned. Hope that helps explain why some of us would prefer 1080p monitoring and are surprised at its exclusion from the specs.

Just saying ;)
 
4:2:2 1080P scaled from the sensor with vitc and embedded audio is all I want. Doesn't even have to be the best quality. But to capture this all day long on my split then take that to offline and cut straight away would be a dream come true (We have very tight turn around) then I can write an edl and use redcine to extract the 4K or 2K for online. I much prefer to cut in 1080 over 720. Everything just works. My grade 1 doesn't even support 720 25P or 50i let alone the fact that 24P is not a 720p format so as you can see I am not a fan 720. But I do understand if the camera can only do 720p. I mean it's like like is doing much else at the same time ;-) !!!!!!
 
For me the issue isn't having 1080P active for on-set monitoring. I actually believe that my clients will be happier overall with 720P, as I can easily explain that it is 'just video assist'.

For me, the much more important thing is to have the EVF and the LCD and the preview output active simultaneously. This is very very important for me, as I work in commercials where having a viewfinder is key for the DOP, having an on-board LCD is key for the focus puller, and having an active HD-SDI output is key for video assist.

Any ideas when this is going to happen?
 
Stuart English said:
So to continue this thought experiment; assuming that this existed, here are some questions for everybody -

What do you want in terms of a 1080p HD-SDI output - single or dual link - i.e how many of each, what color space 4:4:4 or 4:2:2, frame rate(s) 23.98, 24.00 and what else, do we use 1.5GHz HD-SDI or 3GHz, output at 10 bit "log" or 10 bit "linear" - and what default gamma law do you want us to use in each of these cases, audio channels - at what sample rate and what bit depth, time code tracks and metadata - how many time code tracks, assignment of the two time code tracks to VITC and LTC, definition of user bits in time code, method of carrying the metadata in the HD-SDI stream. Then there are the video processing questions - do you need Film Gamma Curves, R G B Gains and Offsets, Edge Detail etc? Do you want this 1080p to be a center crop of the middle 3840 x 2160 pixels or a scale of the full 4096 x 2304. What should be done when the camera is recording at (variable) frames rates other than 23.98 or 24.00 (or 25.00 or 29.97) or in speed ramp or timelapse modes. Do you want burned in timecode and reel/clip name? RS422 control or other - what protocol for what edit controller with what "deck" emulation?

Feedback is welcome -
Click to expand...

Here goes - THE RED BOX basics (if well received, I'll post the "advanced")

caveat #1 - I am not an engineer - so this may be really off -
caveat #2 - I have had three glasses of red wine

Before we talk about outputs and features, let's talk about the image processing.

Let's say we have one SCALE and PROCESSING engine just for the video signal output - let's call that the "video out engine" or VOE.

Let's say we have another "engine" that also decodes the REDCODE RAW .r3d file and scales it. It always scales to 1920 x 1080 - 16 x 9 aspect. Let's call it the RPE (Redcode Processing Engine)

So, if the .r3d file is NOT 16x9 (it's 2:1 - yeah, I know - like we needed another aspect ratio) you would have a choice (setting in the RED BOX MENU) to FIT TO HIGHT (crops left and right) or FIT TO WIDTH (which puts the entire 2:1 inside the 16x9 frame)

What the RPE is doing is getting the frames of the .r3d file into a progressive 1920 x 1080 frame buffer so the VOE can take over -

The VOE always works from the 1920 x 1080 progressive frame (primary format)- which is one of three frame rates - 23.98fps, 24fps, 25 fps and can down-convert to a SECONDARY FORMAT -

The VOE can add a pull down pull down. So VOE can take the 1920 x 1080 image and:
1) cross convert to 720/59.94
2) output 1080i
3) output SD PAL (letterbox, anamorphic, center-crop)
4) output SD NTSC (letterbox, anamorphic, center-crop)

so, we should have:
525i 29.97
625i 25
720p 50
720p 59.94
720p 60
1080i 25
1080i 29.97
1080i 30
1080sf 23.98
1080sf 24

The VOE can ADD a ASPECT RATIO MASK. 1:85, 2:40 (this mask is added prior to DOWNCONVERT to SD)

FEATURES:

two SDI outs:
single 4:2:2 HD-SDI
dual 4:4:4 HD-SDI
SD - SDI

always, embedded TC and embedded audio - 4 channels - (max available in an .r3d file)

LIVE DOWNS-STREAM KEYER for WATERMARKS and TEXT OVERLAY
LIVE TIMECODE OVERLAY

RS422 deck control

AES/EBU audio out - 4 channels

additional META-DATA embedded via ANSI/SMPTE 291M

INPUTS:

for .r3d files:

eSata
LEMO for REDDRIVE
FW800 for a standard FW drive
CF slots - 4 total w/rollover

VIDEO OUTS: (all active)

Digital:
SD and HD-SDI, SMPTE-259/292/296 (2 outputs)
HDMI

Analog:
Composite/S Video (Y/C): NTSC, NTSCJ, PAL
12 bit D/A, 8x oversampling

SD Component: SMPTE/EBU N10, Betacam 525 line, Betacam 525J, RGB
12 bit D/A, 8x oversampling

HD Component: YPbPr, RGB
12-bit D/A, 2x oversampling

I have ideas on managing color "looks" as well if there is interest in me continuing my Red Box babble -
 
Wow I really wanted to bring up the idea of this little box a few months ago, but thought everyone would think I was crazy. I agree with everything Mark just brought up. I would just add LUT support (he hinted to it) and the option for some kind of LOG output as well.


_mike
 
1080P output

1080P output

When I posted this Thread in August:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3495

I did not receive much positive feedback, many people discussed how RedCine would give us all the formats we could want or that Red One is ONLY a digital cinema camera and implied that it should not be used for a "video" application. Redcine is a great program even in its early stages, but the rendering times are a real bottle neck for any one shooting a good bit of footage or anyone who needs fast turnaround times. Comparing the rendering time to the time necessary for developing film at a lab is not relevant as we move forward in the 21st century. I lived close to a lab and was able to get my 35mm film turned around much faster than the current render times. Computers will get faster, RedCine will become faster in newer versions but lets be honest with ourselves - the render times will be a problem for almost everyone with any volume of work.

A clean 1080P output will reconnect us to the existing work flows that while lower quality then 4K are already proven and fast, relatively speaking. Dare I ask again for 1080i? I know this is a dead subject but it would even add more compatibility. You could instantly give a client a 30 minute DVCPRO100, or HDCAM tape for $25 and they could start working with it instantly. The picture quality should be better than any video camera out there because of the massive oversampling of the image, just as film should always looks better than video originated images. The 1080P output will also give us more than 2x the total number of pixels over 720P and this will help with focus, etc.

A clean 720P output is also very important. A simple menu choice to remove any overlays would really help many people using VTRs or capture cards to record quickly and maintain fast work flows.

Stuart English, who I met at NAB and had a detailed conversation with, asked for feedback about the SDI ports. I'd say 4:2:2 should be fine for monitoring with 1.5Gbs outputs. The best trained eye can barely see the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 in monitoring environments. For compositing that is a totally different story.

The output should have the gamma and color curves that the 720p port has now. A SLIGHT amount of detail enhancement (simple H/V) would be great. Detail enhancement should be able to be turned off. Embedded audio would be great using existing SDI protocols. I think most people would want the 1080P to be a scale of the full 4096 x 2304. For other frame rates the output should have a pulldown added to conform it to existing SDI protocols. No burned in time code - if you need the same time code just put it in the VITC.

RS422 control caught me by surprise but is an excellent idea - use standard SONY protocol like the rest of the world. One could easily search though footage in the camera and dump it to tape or a computer for super fast assembly.

These possibilities are not diminishing the camera they are making it even more powerful and a great force for positive change throughout the entire industry.

Stuart, thank you for you concern and asking for feedback. You and the rest of the RED team are making the best camera that has ever existed for motion picture work.
 
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