HDR Reference Monitor

[Hugues Dagallier]

X300 cost $2500 for two days to rent and Pulsar is not even available for rent, only as a lease and even if it was available, it's a $250k monitor, so the daily rate would be astronomical. So, no, if you can't afford to buy X300, then the professional monitor is not in the cards for you...

Yes. That's why I and probably a lot of people are interrested about an alternative . FSI is probably going to be at least 10-12K$ I think if there is some concurrence with Eizo, which is a reasonnable price. But nor the Eizo and nor the FSI are out. So that's why I am interrested about consumer grade display like new Dell FALD HDR display, Sony ZD9 with its hard clip capability, and LG OLED 7 series.

 

[Stacey Spears]

What are your thoughts about grading HDR on a zd9 and a b7, with lut box and proper calibration tools ?

The Z9D is not a grading monitor. It has a mode that hard clips at 1000 nits, so after you grade on an X300, you can look at it on the Z9D to see a larger image to check for noise and grain. The Z9D is one of my favorite consumer HDR displays. I have the 65". I bought it after looking at ALL of the consumer HDR displays. LG, Panasonic and Sony also have nice OLEDs, all based on LG OLED RGBW panels. I based my decision on objects measurements. Right now I use it to develop HDR test patterns for my next disc.

 

[Marc Wielage]

What are your thoughts about the upcoming 2k$ dell hdr monitor (1,000 nits brightness, and I believe 384 FALD zones, if it the same panel than the nvidia/asus/acer) ? What are your thoughts about grading HDR on a zd9 and a b7, with lut box and proper calibration tools ?

I think grading in HDR is very difficult right now unless you have a fairly big budget. Look at it this way: if you were trying to color-correct standard def 20 years ago, a broadcast monitor would cost $20,000+. Now, you can get a decent monitor that can be calibrated to Rec709 for under $3000, which to me is a miracle.

Dell has yet to make a monitor that can even reliably do Rec709 HD, so I'm skeptical they can suddenly do one for HDR. Panel consistency alone is a tough problem to solve. I'm probably going to try to switch to an LG B7 or C7 over the summer, but we'll have to see how well they calibrate for Rec709 (LUT box or no). HDR is still in a state of flux for indie projects; if I had to do one, I'd do what Jake did and just rent an X300 or book some time at a facility that had one.

The Sony 65" Z9D is about $5500 right now on Amazon, which is a bit out of my price range:

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR65Z9D-65-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B01HY6W3Z2

If Stacey says it's good, I'd go with his judgement.

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

Ok, thanks Jake, Stacey et Marc .

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I think grading in HDR is very difficult right now unless you have a fairly big budget. Look at it this way: if you were trying to color-correct standard def 20 years ago, a broadcast monitor would cost $20,000+. Now, you can get a decent monitor that can be calibrated to Rec709 for under $3000, which to me is a miracle.

Dell has yet to make a monitor that can even reliably do Rec709 HD, so I'm skeptical they can suddenly do one for HDR. Panel consistency alone is a tough problem to solve. I'm probably going to try to switch to an LG B7 or C7 over the summer, but we'll have to see how well they calibrate for Rec709 (LUT box or no). HDR is still in a state of flux for indie projects; if I had to do one, I'd do what Jake did and just rent an X300 or book some time at a facility that had one.

The Sony 65" Z9D is about $5500 right now on Amazon, which is a bit out of my price range:

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR65Z9D-65-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B01HY6W3Z2

If Stacey says it's good, I'd go with his judgement.

Marc, what happened to the around $25k-$30k you keep telling us?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The Z9D is not a grading monitor. It has a mode that hard clips at 1000 nits, so after you grade on an X300, you can look at it on the Z9D to see a larger image to check for noise and grain. The Z9D is one of my favorite consumer HDR displays. I have the 65". I bought it after looking at ALL of the consumer HDR displays. LG, Panasonic and Sony also have nice OLEDs, all based on LG OLED RGBW panels. I based my decision on objects measurements. Right now I use it to develop HDR test patterns for my next disc.

I posted a link somewhere about how HDR like in the z9d, could be controlled through meta data going to.the display, to give a usable result. I don't know where it is though, but it is something you need an program for to change the meta data.

 

[Stacey Spears]

I posted a link somewhere about how HDR like in the z9d, could be controlled through meta data going to.the display, to give a usable result. I don't know where it is though, but it is something you need an program for to change the meta data.

You can use an HDfury to send different metadata. Some displays have different tone mapping curves depending on MaxCLL.


The Z9D has a hard clip at 1000 mode, which is what you want to review footage graded on an X300. When grading footage, you want the display to clip, not tone map. And, it is not a grading display. It is a consumer HDR viewing display and a great one at that, but I would not grade on it at all.

With that said, people are trying to grade on consumer displays like the LG and Z9D because they can't afford the X300 and can't get access to the Pulsar. The Eizo and FSI should be good displays. There is also a Dolby Maui, that does 2000 nits. I don't know if anyone is actually using it. Canon has some HDR displays.

As of today, the X300 and Pulsar are still the primary game in town.

One reason they are so expensive is that they don't sell panels that don't meet the bar. This is different than consumer displays that can vary greatly from unit to unit.

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

Hi Wayne

With that said, people are trying to grade on consumer displays like the LG and Z9D because they can't afford the X300 and can't get access to the Pulsar.

Exactly. The question is : With a majority of successes or fails ?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

You could google to find out, I only read the article Hugues.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

You can use an HDfury to send different metadata. Some displays have different tone mapping curves depending on MaxCLL.


The Z9D has a hard clip at 1000 mode, which is what you want to review footage graded on an X300. When grading footage, you want the display to clip, not tone map. And, it is not a grading display. It is a consumer HDR viewing display and a great one at that, but I would not grade on it at all.

With that said, people are trying to grade on consumer displays like the LG and Z9D because they can't afford the X300 and can't get access to the Pulsar. The Eizo and FSI should be good displays. There is also a Dolby Maui, that does 2000 nits. I don't know if anyone is actually using it. Canon has some HDR displays.

As of today, the X300 and Pulsar are still the primary game in town.

One reason they are so expensive is that they don't sell panels that don't meet the bar. This is different than consumer displays that can vary greatly from unit to unit.

Thanks Stacey. Basically only the Pansonic DX900/EX950/1000 ate the only ones I would want to attempt to grade with SDR, plus a few OLED. The Panasonic has THX certification, which requires a higher level of consistency from unit to unit, and higher color accuracy. Hence there are very few THX sets, and even though the Chinese keep promising a THX set, I am yet to see one actually get approved. As for HDR, I would say target less nits and look for something with color "constancy" over that range (realising many cameras can't even keep color constancy during recording). It is a shame we have nothing that could reliably do 1000 nits veven, if only we have something that could reliably target 500-740 nits?

What Hugues said is true. It is fantasy to expect low end people with after tax salaries that may be measurable against the price of a $30k monitor, to buy and grade on such for budget work. There has to be a compromise for C grade results, often from C or D grade cameras.

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

Thanks Stacey. Basically only the Pansonic DX900/EX950/1000 ate the only ones I would want to attempt to grade with SDR, plus a few OLED. The Panasonic has THX certification, which requires a higher level of consistency from unit to unit, and higher color accuracy. Hence there are very few THX sets, and even though the Chinese keep promising a THX set, I am yet to see one actually get approved. As for HDR, I would say target less nits and look for something with color "constancy" over that range (realising many cameras can't even keep color constancy during recording). It is a shame we have nothing that could reliably do 1000 nits veven, if only we have something that could reliably target 500-740 nits?

What Hugues said is true. It is fantasy to expect low end people with after tax salaries that may be measurable against the price of a $30k monitor, to buy and grade on such for budget work. There has to be a compromise for C grade results, often from C or D grade cameras.

I am extremely surprised there is no more competition between grading display. We have pro cameras, we have pro grading panels, we have pro software, but what about pro master displays ?!

BMD should buy in bulk the new panasonic lcd panels with 1m:1 ratio they developped, that eizo seems to used, do economy of scale, and destroy the market.

Watch what Tilta did. Wireless follows focus was a 6K$ market. 1k$, 500 pre-orders group buy. half a millions dollars worth of sale only with a forum. If you bring quality useful products to a decent price, it's game over for everyone else.

IMO, A 3k$ reference HDR monitor would sell like hotcakes here !

Hey Elliot,

For doing an HDR grade pass the only, actually available option, is the Sony BVM-X300 (not to be confused with the PVM-X300). This display will go up to 1000nits and supports ST 2084. SMPTE 2084-PQ covers up to 10000nits, which no current, commercially available display can emit. There is the Dolby Pulsar that can go up to 4000nits, however, those are not available through normal channels.

With regard to gamut the BVM-X300 has a BT.2020 (rec2020) "compatibility mode" and will display a percentage of BT.2020. No commercially available wide gamut displays can show 100% of the range.

The gamut and light level limitations are technology related. Eventually we will get there, but the manufacturers will need some time to catch up. For HDR10, short of the Sony X300, the highest-end of the Sony consumer displays will get you the closest at this time... check out the Z9D 75".

With regard to Dolby Vision vs HDR 10... Dolby Vision is a great technology, however, grading for it involves some very specific equipment. You'll need a grading app that supports Dolby Vision -- Resolve is one of them, A Dolby CMU and a "supported" mastering display. Sony BVM-X300, Dolby Maui or Dolby Pulsar. Different displays will allow you to visualize at different light levels.

HDR 10 is simpler to work with, although, there is less control of the user experience and less display-side optimization.

Then there is Hyper Log Gamma (HLG) which you will see used in live sporting events. This is another can of worms and I won't get into that now.

Hope this helps.

- Jonathon

Source : https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/277/39130

It seems that the Z9D is the closest thing (or maybe a Series 7 OLED now) for budget.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I agree Hugues, but there is more to it. A mass volume manufacturer wants to maximise cost reductions at quality range. So, they can let variations in which I don't care about as long it can be reliably calibrated and it sticks. Now, to get around all the corner cutting requires redoing the production line, materials and design, so millions. For a small run that's big money, expensive prices. But to do it for a mass market product might even work out to be an extra $100, depending on what you want, even $1000. But 100 dollars, is 100 dollars to them, maybe on a million units, equals 100 million less profit to make something that will compete and all but wipe out various high margin top end displays. So, don't expect Panasonic to rush out panels cheap to BM (but I admire your spirit). Now, that $100 might mean they are going to charge $1000 extra at retail to cover everything and make increase product. At $1000, maybe it will be an extra $5000.

Now, the manufacturers have their fingers in various pies, so a lot of OEM companies can be tied up unwilling to release better panels cheaper, but the world is big, now days with many panels manufacturers and even more than 2 oled manufacturers, compared to the old days and you might find somebody willing to break rank and do an half ass pro quality TV cheap. Half ass means, 709, P3, maybe eben rec2020 HDR if they can get hold of various patents and do a laser backlight like display. Black contrast filter is important, to nock down stray light and increase saturation.

Now, what is out there that tries to guarantee performance and control variation are things like THX. But in reality, Panasonic is probably going well beyond THX in refinement in their new 950 and 1000 displays. So, what is really needed is THX Pro. I wish somebody would tell them. Anyway, nobody has to submit to THX to try to follow their quality standards. So, anybody in India could eben try it.

So that is a few avenues BM could try. But, you basically have to start with what's coming off their normal production lines, unless it is like the laservue (less sophistication and costs).

 

[Marc Wielage]

Marc, what happened to the around $25k-$30k you keep telling us?

I'm not grading HDR in my own suite. If I needed to do that, I'd either rent an BVM-X300 or book time in an HDR color suite somewhere in LA and do a trim pass. I don't think HDR grading is practical and affordable yet. I feel the same way about D-Cinema.