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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Variable ND Filters

Joe Taylor

Joe Taylor

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Does anybody have any extensive experience using variable ND filters? I've been a sceptic for sometime-- just seems too convenient. Is there any trade off in quality when compared to using the old school grade of NDs?
 
I use two high quality polarizers with no problems. It just feels wrong though. I'll put them up with an IR if the sun is coming and going outside. Still feels dirty.

Nick
 
you get what you pay for... if you're doing cinematic or high-quality shooting i'd say most will recommend traditional, pricey ND's (or IRND's). the variable ND's are actually just two polarizers, which brings its own set of potential problems, plus that's one more glass element in front of the lens. but if you're doing some run and gun style shooting or want to test it out, you may not notice anything more than a tiny difference - it gets the job done as far as light levels, but if you're worried about color precision it's not going to help you a whole lot. they were designed for shooting stills, for a reason.
 
Honestly, with two Schnieder tru-pols, I haven't seen any bad effects. Colors don't shift, saturation is good. If you want to use them as a pola, you have to rotate both of them together. If you go to far toward closed without an IR, you get some crazy effects. Seeing through clothes and stuff. But for running around outside in changing conditions, it works well. I am guessing the reason it was never done on film is because there was no way to meter it or know what setting you were at. It sure is handy to just dial in the correct exposure without changing the stop. Give it a shot.

Nick
 
+1 on a lack of color precision issues.

Also you will notice resolution "damaging" effects at 50mm/85mm. It's less noticeable on HD cameras (due to a lack of resolution), but you see it at 4K projected for sure. At 135mm/200mm it's extremely noticeable.

Invest in NDs and some sort of IR protection. To get the most out of Red (and pretty much all modern high resolution capture devices) go with IRND, HMND Combo filters, or ND + HM. You likely won't need or see a need for IR protection at 0.3 and 0.6.
 
I have been using VND's a lot this last 12 months. Never thought I would ever use them.. but now using on some very big work of late.

The do's and don't are...
Even though they can block out up to 12 stops of light... don't. You get IR poisoning like crazy.. the same as if you put 12stops of ND on the front.
I recommend you don't screw them past 6 stops if you can help it... for the cleanest image.. but you can sneak out to 8, knowing that you will start to loose greens slowly..
The other fault with them is, that you get that ugly polarised splotch on wide angle shots up to 28mm... thats only if you push the VND to far again.

I never like using wide angles lenses anyway.. so I dont really have the problem. and seldom do I go past 8 stops of ND... For me the VND has become very useful and super quick.

So if you stay in-between these parameters.. you will be more than satisfied with the results.

The best VND we have and used so far is the Singh-ray.

http://singh-ray.com/varind.html

Here is a TVAD I shot exclusively using the VND... in bright daylight, forcing the fstop down to as low as 1.4 on most lenses.
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Toia_latest/60sec_DSS_CORE_SCULPTURE_Master.mov

And Phil is correct, ND's with a IR filter are better... if you do a back to back test VND Vs ND... ND will win, especially at the loaded end of the spectrum.. But when it comes to speed, ease and simplicity... and keeping within those parameters i mentioned above... You will be more than happy enough.

Unless you are a real pixel peeper... :)
 
Found it..
A pushed to the limit test.
Note that 6 stops is more than fine... 8 stops starts to dip... 10 stops your entering IR land..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...test-This-will-open-a-can-of-worms&highlight=

VND_test.jpg
 
I use the 82mm Heliopan when shooting doc-style with photo lenses without a mattebox. With this type of shooting it works extremely well where speed is of upmost importance.
 
We have the Heliopan and I'm not sure I could get things to look as bad as Mark's picture illustrates with IR! Possible, but I've cranked mine up and still had usable images.

Anyways, for true run and gun where you do not have time for ND's, the VND is a godsend. They work very well, but like Mark said, you definitely don't want to crank it up to 10 or 12 often.
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
I use the 82mm Heliopan when shooting doc-style with photo lenses without a mattebox. With this type of shooting it works extremely well where speed is of upmost importance.
Click to expand...


I agree. I also have a 82mm Heliopan Vario ND-w-front threads (imported from Germany ... hell of a lot less than what they charge for them here) that we used on a Nikon 24-70 zoom-w-a collapsible rubber lens hood for a recent shoot in Italy. It worked great. You just can't max out the ND, or you will get some optical anamolies.
__________________________________
Scarlet X # 1859 “Bettie Page”
“… preparing to ‘whip’ the competition …”

Zeiss Lenses:

CY 21/2.8
ZF 28/2.0
CY 35-70/3.4
CY 50/1.4
ZF100/2.0

Nikon Lenses:
G 14-24/2.8
G 24-70/2.8
D 80-200/2.8

Tokina Lenses:

11-16/2.8
 
Mark Toia said:
Unless you are a real pixel peeper... :)
Click to expand...

Peepers gotta peep :)

I have three 77mm VNDs sitting in a drawer. I don't use them for professional work. That's just my opinion though. I did buy those for a reason at some point. But having a set of screw on 77mm HMND works extremely well for me.

I haven't replaced my set of 4x5.65 HMND that magically grew legs and walked off a commercial shoot just yet, but I will in January.


Kevin Wild said:
Anyways, for true run and gun where you do not have time for ND's, the VND is a godsend.
Click to expand...

Just a side note, for me screw on are pretty quick. But something I do with 4x5.65 filters is place about 3 of them in extra filter trays so they are ready on the fly to be plopped in when needed. Even had a friend sew up nice little microfiber sleeves for them. I'll be rebuilding that setup in about 4 weeks. It worked really well.
 
Has anyone experimented with a hot mirror in front of a VND? Curious if that helps at all or if it just screws things up. Always wanted a VND for fast reality tv/ documentary shooting (like mentioned previously in this thread)...but have never had it in me to buy one yet. This thread is reassuring and makes me once again very interested.

Phil - what brand of VNDs do you own?
 
Adam Johnson said:
Has anyone experimented with a hot mirror in front of a VND? Curious if that helps at all or if it just screws things up. Always wanted a VND for fast reality tv/ documentary shooting (like mentioned previously in this thread)...but have never had it in me to buy one yet. This thread is reassuring and makes me once again very interested.

Phil - what brand of VNDs do you own?
Click to expand...

One is a Singh=Ray, another off brand, the last I have to check on. It's not the Heliopan, but it might be B+W or something. I'm not home just yet. It's been a long time since I've touched them at all.

Just a note, when you have a Hot Mirror in front of a Variable ND filter you now have 3 filters in front of your lens. For me this is a concern, especially shooting one to two stops from maximum aperture on most focal lengths.

As always, testing for yourself will give you the answer you are looking for though.
 
Cool, thanks for the feedback. Yep 3 filters is an awful lot!


Phil Holland said:
One is a Singh=Ray, another off brand, the last I have to check on. It's not the Heliopan, but it might be B+W or something. I'm not home just yet. It's been a long time since I've touched them at all.

Just a note, when you have a Hot Mirror in front of a Variable ND filter you now have 3 filters in front of your lens. For me this is a concern, especially shooting one to two stops from maximum aperture on most focal lengths.

As always, testing for yourself will give you the answer you are looking for though.
Click to expand...
 
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