Have we forgotten about HDRx?

[Alan Greene]

When HDRx was first unveiled, it was mind-blowing. Remember the shot of the guy walking from the hot desert sun into the unlit garage? As dynamic range improved, it seems that it has gotten less attention, and is perhaps less necessary than it might have been years ago. It didn’t even occur to me to test HDRx on my Gemini until a few days ago.

There is a dearth of discussion about HDRx here on REDuser. I was curious about what options exist in Final Cut Pro for blending the two tracks. (Answer: none?) Even the documentation is wrong: HDRx is now hidden and enabled by default? I don’t think so. In any case, with the latest sensors, it doesn’t feel like there’s much interest anymore.

I tested it with hot sunlight on white houses, and yeah it worked. But with certain kinds of motion blur, blending the two tracks doesn’t seem feasible. Monitoring is perhaps another issue. I felt like I should expose over what I normally would to bring out the shadows, knowing that the X track would have highlights covered. Granted, this was just a quick test, but it didn’t feel like I was getting to the truth of what the image would eventually be.

I could see HDRx being a lifesaver in extreme situations, but for Gemini users in particular, I’m curious to hear if anyone has found it to be useful in a real-world setting.

 

[Nick Gardner]

I shot HDRX when I was in situations I couldn't control just to have the extra range, but never ever had to use it. Post was always able to work with what the camera had captured on one track. And that was from MX chip to Dragon. Now on Gemini and haven't even thought about it in a couple years.

Nick

 

[Björn Benckert]

Yes it needs to be quite intense lighting situations to make sense to turn it on. But I used it quite bit. When tilting / panning towards the sun and such and light really drastically change. Or when fiddling with explosives and not knowing how high exposure will be until after the fact. It was really useful when sitting for a few days in a pitch black studio in france shooting fire crackers and such things against black as vfx laters without it I think half the takes would have been spoiled.

The trick with most people miss is that you really need to set your a track with a overexposure. Proceed like:

1. open up camera one stop at the time until one of the stoplights goes on. open up for example 2 more stops.
2. turn on HDRx and set it to 3 stops.

Now the DR of the two tracks have one stop overlay and is extended by two stops.

If you dont overexpose the A track then dont bother it only eats your bandwidth and does not give you any thing positive.

 

[Sterling Williams]

I had a recent shoot in a foundry where they were pouring liquid metal. Extreme Dynamic Range. I totally forgot about the HDRx mode while shooting but will definitely be using it next time because I had some highlights clip on a few shots.

Framegrabs courtesy of Mammoth HD (bottom of page):

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?120953-RED-Collective-%96-Mammoth-HD/page18

 

[Alex Kiritz]

With 8K we haven't had as much extra bandwidth to play with. It's not possible with Epic-W unless you go with a smaller frame and with DSMC2 you have to choose a much higher compression ratio. I think that's why you haven't heard people talking about it.

 

[Mike P.]

I rarely use it, but when I do, boy oh boy, am I ever thankful it's there! I can't imagine shooting an entire project with it though (the motion artifacts must eventually cause you trouble, I'm sure). But for those one-off "oh crap" shots, it's like having "get outta jail free" card in your back pocket.

Plus in a lot of cases (Dragon, and definitely IPP2 onward), I think the roll-off got noticeably nicer, so people just tend to let things blow-out nowadays (since it looks acceptable, rather than a gross hard clip). Hell, I can't even remember the last time I had to replace a sky... do people even do that any more? (yes, jokes).

 

[Phil Holland]

There was a hot minute where HDRx was going to removed from the cameras from about DSMC2 Dragon on, however, it's an incredibly useful tool for those times where you need it or even times where it's worth exploring for a shot.

Famously it was used conservatively on some of the earlier Netflix productions to hold windows within exposure. In my OG DSMC Field Ops Guide I outline how I've used it in particular for timelapsers work where scene lighting can change greatly over an expanse of time. In 2014/2015 I used it on many 8-12 hour timelapsers shots for instance.

For most daily shooting needs it goes untouched and ignored, but on the day you need it, having HDRx there allows you to do even more with the camera you have. Though it's a bit more hidden in the menu system these days.

I suggested to the RED Team a bit ago to just toss it under the Recording Menu, likely with a separate Tab as that makes sense Similar to the suggestion of having a Key Map for toggling the HDRx exposures between A + B Tracks so you can actually see what's going on properly. That's been there for a while now.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I used HDRx way back when the Epic first came back, but there was no way for post to track which shots used it and which didn't -- in the end, they just didn't bother looking for the B side of the exposure. Did Red ever create a way for that metadata to track all the way through dailies and editorial?

 

[Audy Erel]

I was so excited when I first got my RED and HDRX feels like magic, used some in a short film and corporate projects where bright windows were present. Here's my first test video of the magic, so much fun owning this camera really:

 

[Phil Holland]

I used HDRx way back when the Epic first came back, but there was no way for post to track which shots used it and which didn't -- in the end, they just didn't bother looking for the B side of the exposure. Did Red ever create a way for that metadata to track all the way through dailies and editorial?

Yes sir indeed. I think all 3rd party applications support through the SDK, certainly since back then. It's also all metadata as well and trackable easily. Any decent post house should really have an issue if the know what is going on

 

[Alan Greene]

Thanks to everyone for the great thoughts. I definitely see how my initial impressions were off-base.

The trick with most people miss is that you really need to set your a track with a overexposure.

Now that you've said it, that makes perfect sense.

In my OG DSMC Field Ops Guide I outline how I've used it in particular for timelapsers work where scene lighting can change greatly over an expanse of time. In 2014/2015 I used it on many 8-12 hour timelapsers shots for instance.

Immediately after I posted, I realized that time-lapse is the perfect use for it. I ran out and tried it with tonight's sunset, and ... I screwed it up again, didn't overexpose properly. That's going to take some getting used to.

I suggested to the RED Team a bit ago to just toss it under the Recording Menu, likely with a separate Tab as that makes sense Similar to the suggestion of having a Key Map for toggling the HDRx exposures between A + B Tracks so you can actually see what's going on properly. That's been there for a while now.

That's exactly what I need! I keep forgetting to fill up the soft keys with useful stuff like this. Thanks again!

 

[Björn Benckert]

Yes sir indeed. I think all 3rd party applications support through the SDK, certainly since back then. It's also all metadata as well and trackable easily. Any decent post house should really have an issue if the know what is going on

But its not like resolve and the others really put a HDR flag on those clips that has a second track... the colourist or compositor usually never read the notes from shoot and don't go into the raw setting on each shot to check if there is more tracks available. So with the normal bit of laziness that surrounds all post things the B track is easily forgotten. I guess the advice to the colourist would be, for all shots that are burned out please look for the second track and implement it. But lot of times its something thats lost in the process. Would be nice if it showed as two outputs directly in the resolve node flowgraf if the clip was HDRx but sadly its hidden under the camera tap.

 

[Phil Holland]

But its not like resolve and the others really put a HDR flag on those clips that has a second track... the colourist or compositor usually never read the notes from shoot and don't go into the raw setting on each shot to check if there is more tracks available. So with the normal bit of laziness that surrounds all post things the B track is easily forgotten. I guess the advice to the colourist would be, for all shots that are burned out please look for the second track and implement it. But lot of times its something thats lost in the process. Would be nice if it showed as two outputs directly in the resolve node flowgraf if the clip was HDRx but sadly its hidden under the camera tap.

Every job is different and likely every workflow pipe, but in the world I mostly work in there's a Post Production Supervisor and/or a good deal of communication regarding specific shot notes that get translated to the Post or VFX Houses.

I mean there's literally notes on every take normally to some extent.

When I hear something is lost in the process I question what's going on in the process in the first place.

I'm aware the industry as a whole is looking to trim a lot of fat often in the form of specific jobs being removed from the equation, but this really falls under the category of a shot note that should be forwarded down the pipe to whoever needs to see it, and somebody should be responsible for that task on the post side and production side. Heh, no more neg reports I guess.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Every job is different and likely every workflow pipe, but in the world I mostly work in there's a Post Production Supervisor and/or a good deal of communication regarding specific shot notes that get translated to the Post or VFX Houses.

I mean there's literally notes on every take normally to some extent.

When I hear something is lost in the process I question what's going on in the process in the first place.

I'm aware the industry as a whole is looking to trim a lot of fat often in the form of specific jobs being removed from the equation, but this really falls under the category of a shot note that should be forwarded down the pipe to whoever needs to see it, and somebody should be responsible for that task on the post side and production side. Heh, no more neg reports I guess.

Not on ever y commercial but quite common workflow for commercials is that DP leaves set and is then out of production. Agency or production company handles the post and makes sure the grade is done. Lots of information is lost in those handovers. Also I actually never seen a colorist then sit and have shot notes from sets while he grades. For feature work then yes more likely the DP is involved but lot of times not sitting in on every shot and its quite likely that things slip, composting done before anyone realized there was a second layer etc.

To me it would allmost be better if HDRx created two clips with the same name. That would make all NLE´s hiccup on it and the one doing the conform would realize there is "double takes" on the given shot. Now the HDRx stuff tend to go past unnoticed.

 

[William Long]

For documentary it is really useful. Use it often.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I used HDRx way back when the Epic first came back, but there was no way for post to track which shots used it and which didn't -- in the end, they just didn't bother looking for the B side of the exposure. Did Red ever create a way for that metadata to track all the way through dailies and editorial?

I had a shot that I posted years ago on RedUser showing how HDRx saved the day. I'd never tried it before and my only regret was not being bold enough with the bracket, should have pushed it even more. I was riding in a tin can being pulled by a dozer while filming a fellow who was planting trees by hand. He planted on average 7,000 trees a day this way, and had been doing it for years.

Knew about the motion issues of HDRx, but couldn't avoid it since we were jostled back and forth going over stumps and ruts. Took the footage to Light Iron and Corrine combined the two, no problem. She tweaked the colors on their Pablo system and it worked out great. All I had to do was watch.

That scene would not have been used without HDRx, nor feasible.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

hat scene would not have been used without HDRx, nor feasible.

Hey Mark, do you have a link to the clip? Thx!

 

[Mark Phelan]

Hey Mark, do you have a link to the clip? Thx!

Sadly, no. I looked to see if it was still online but it's not. I did an A/B comparison and if I can find it I'll post it.

 

[Alan Greene]

To me it would allmost be better if HDRx created two clips with the same name. That would make all NLE´s hiccup on it and the one doing the conform would realize there is "double takes" on the given shot.

I second this. I'm not even seeing a way in REDCINE-X to export two separate R3D files (using R3D Trim as the format). This would be super useful.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I second this. I'm not even seeing a way in REDCINE-X to export two separate R3D files (using R3D Trim as the format). This would be super useful.

You could do two r3d's with full a and full b track settings.