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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

had a producer send me this for why bmpc is better than the scarlet :) for a shoot

I made a comment on that video questioning his methodology for determining dynamic range but it only shows up when I'm logged in and I don't think anyone else can see it. So, he either won't approve it or I got ghost banned by YouTube for adding links to Shane Hurlbut's ACTUAL tests of the two camera sensors being "tested" in this video.
 
I can agree with him that I can never get 30 min on my REDVOLT.

As far as if the BMPC 4K is better than a Scarlet...it doesnt matter anymore to me at this point in my career.

I waited almost 6 months for that stupid first iteration and thankfully got wind of the BT Scarlet sale ;)

So thanks BMD, for introducing me to high-end film production.

The promise of a low cost 2.5K camera with decent DNR got the boost I needed to do this finally.

I didnt get far into the video, the audio track scared me away.

Does he really pi it against an EPIC?
 
That was the first thing I noticed too Scott, his methodology was stupendously floored.
 
Bare in mind, I'm going the Devils advocate route, and chances are if you have a strong working relationship with this producer, most of the 'worst case scenario' I speak of will be nullified.

Suresh, are you looking for reasons to give this producer on why s/he should be shooting RED instead? If so, none of the responses I've read are going to convince said producer to opt for (the presumably more expensive) RED package. Not only that, but telling him/her that this guy's test is flawed doesn't diminish the results (which, on YouTube, make both cameras look pretty much the same...) For all intents and purposes that's (visual) fact, and telling the producer otherwise would be trying to convince him/her that his/her eyes are wrong/lying.

Short of shooting your own tests that highlight the differences/strengths of RED, you're probably just spinning your wheels with "yeah but the test is flawed". If you already have your own RED package and are looking for a kit fee, tell the producer you'll match the rate of a separate BM rental (if you can), otherwise shoot it on the BlackMagic. If you are against using the BM because you think the results will suck and speak poorly to your ability, then turn the job down. That said, when the project is eventually shot on BM, it'll likely turn out perfectly fine (to the producer's standards anyway) and s/he will likely never come to you again.

As the DoP make your opinions known. If the producer wants to go in another direction, and you've let them know the potential pitfalls, then you can either make the most of it (and shoot on BM), or bail out. More over, if you push for RED and actually convince the producer to go that way, if there are any camera issues during the shoot or footage issues down the post-pipeline (like a colourist subjectively complaining that 'RED sucks') onus will be on you and that producer may not work with you again as a result (depending on the severity of the issue).

I think the key things working against the BM are that it chews through media, higher potential for dropped frames, moire/alaising, and on-set functionality can be cumbersome (though that's more dependent on your familiarity than anything). Most of those problems can be worked around given a little extra time/care, it's just a matter of whether or not you have that extra time/care...
 
It's simple, that guy just can't see and use the advantages of a RED Scarlet. He didn't dig deep enough, maybe he didn't want to. His tests are poorly done, i guess he doesn't know better. But of course he see's the disadvantages, they're easy to spot. He got some points here and there, we all know them, but i think he exaggerated there too.

Overall, there is lots of competition for a Scarlet/MX out there now, we have to admit our baby gets beaten here and there. But on the other hand, it's 3+ years old, still holds up as one of the best options out there and there is Scarlet/Dragon now.

So in the end this video is just BMD-hyping and RED-bashing. Poorly done.
 
It's all fine we are back on red:) After a chat, I put the video up just to highlight the issue of opinions presented as fact and the effects.

To quote public enemy

"Don't believe the hype"
 
In the future, anytime somebody references something like this particular review feel free to show them footage shot on Red cameras. Whether that's your own material or any number of feature films and other content, it should get the message across.

Also, what's fun, is some of those reviews like the one shown don't explore any of the technical issues that have been difficult to manage on certain cameras.
 
Suresh Kara said:
had a producer send me this for why bmpc is better than the scarlet :) for a shoot
Click to expand...
There's very little worse in the world of production or post than when an ignorant person gets a little technical knowledge and then gets into a position of power. The producer is the last person who should be choosing a camera, especially when they're comparing a $5000 camera to a $40,000 camera. I really dislike it when the producer tries to tell the DP his or her job.

I have no problem if a producer requests that the DP do camera tests and everybody looks at several different cameras under the exact same shooting conditions, and that's a reasonable situation.

I think the BMD cameras are OK for certain things, but no way are they necessarily "easier" to deal with in post than any other camera on the market. There are far, far too many contradictory factors that will affect the eventual outcome. To me, the only thing the BMD camera has going for it is price, and producers are foolish if they think that's the single most important issue.
 
I went from BMCC to Scarlet Dragon. I still have love for BMD though. I was in the middle of writing out a long reply, but then realized it wasn't worth it.
I'll summarize: 1) skin tones 2) motion.
 
I'm not a huge fan of shootout videos. They're always going to have issues, no matter how controlled they try to be. The scarlet has been good to me and even better since I upgraded to dragon. There was a time a few years ago that I lost jobs because I didn't have a red one. All I know is that since going red, I've never lost a job because someone else had a better camera. The scalret
gets better all of the time. Not just due to firmware upgrades, but because I get better at using it and unlocking more of what it had to offer. I still have a way to go.
 
had a 2.5K blackmagic camera, sold the damn thing for a Scarlet. Blackmagic is one hell of a joke of a company. And the Ursa.. don't even get me started on how retarded that thing is.
 
The BMC has less range. It's very easy to see when shooting them side by side. The BMC might look sharper at a first glance but that comes with moare issues. I never managed to get moare in RED and the softness of the olpf is very possible to adjust to taste and frankly I never had "sharpness issues with RED, when it's unsharp it's AC problems or simply poor lensing. Most other points he list like batteries, workflow etc is twisted like he is a sales guy working at BM. The only point the BMC cameras has against RED is price. But then again that could be twisted to make RED look better.... For RED you have: PL,EF, Nikon,FD, Leica,BNCR and a few other mounts... With his logic you could state that you would need to buy one BM camera for each of them... but then again they are not all available for BM camera... r3d raw has advantages over proress and raw uncompressed. HDRx is a nice feature.... pulling focus on EF glass is a nice feature. stopmotion and framesumming are nice features... attachable modules are nice to have... dedicated multiple viewing options is also nice... fool control is pretty cool. The THC is the only focus iris zoom feature that writes in lens data per frame into image files... Sensor cropping can be looked at as a very usefull feature, Motion mount is a patented feature that will not be in any other camera any time soon. Simply RED has the upper hand on resolution, color palette and cofigure options... There is no producer that can argue against that. but if they do not want to pay for it... well then they dont. To cover all angels you kind of need to have all cameras. Lol.
 
Joshua Cadmium said:
Here's a better review and a better Red Epic comparison (shooting at the same time, with the same lens and the sensor plane aligned on a 3D type rig): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZRDphsqMQI#t=1325 .
Click to expand...

That's one of the best made and informative introductory camera overview/reviews I've seen.

Not sure though about the direct comparisons to the RED MX, which start at 30.05. It seems to me like a good comparison test set up overall, but while the ungraded footage comparisons seem fair enough, as soon as it starts comparing the graded shots I think the objectivity of the test suffers and it gets a bit superficial.

Thanks for the link anyway Joshua, was good to see.
 
Suresh Kara said:
Too much bullshit in that review to start listing.
If you are going to do reviews and put them online I feel they should be factual not fictional

Like Shane's ursa review:https://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2014/12/blackmagic-4k-ursa-tests-part-1/
And https://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2015/01/blackmagic-4k-ursa-tests-part-2/
Click to expand...

The Ursa and BMPC or black magic 4K production camera use the same 4K sensor and apparently
Shane likens it's overexposure to Alexa...even though the BM 4K sensor has less dynamic range
than the BM cinema and pocket cinema cameras.

Sure the test in the OP is not very exacting...but in context for what this guy shoots it's probably good
enough and the camera is good enough as well. Like Shane says below you have to consider price/quality
when evaluating your expectations of a camera system.

We are going to start with over-exposing the sensor to push it to its breaking point. What I noticed with this particular 4K sensor was that it doesn’t exhibit the latitude of the BMCC or the BMPCC. I found a useable latitude of about eleven stops. It blows fast, but it has a beautiful roll off into the highlights. I think this is one of the strong points of the camera, so even though it is limited by its latitude, the way it over-exposes feels more like the Arri Alexa. The Canon C300 or C500 clip very fast. It might have 12 stops, but if it looks like video clipping highlights, then what is the point?
Click to expand...

The C500 did not handle underexposing very well either in our Need for Speed tests. After -1 ½ stops it fell apart as well, but you could bring back the BMCC pretty well, again exhibiting the increased latitude of that sensor which boasts 13 stops. I was recently shooting with the Alexa and I love how that camera rolls off highlights and how it handles underexposure, which has 14 stops of latitude. These extra stops are huge for making your image shine. You might not have the resources or a crew to constantly be altering the extreme conditions with nets, neutral density on windows, flying large diffusion frames to take values down. But we are looking at price points, right? The Alexa is $70K and the BMCC is $2K and the URSA is $5K. You have to be realistic with your expectations of a camera at its price point. Period.
Click to expand...
 
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