Good enough...

[Jerry W]

I agree with you. What I'm trying to figure out is why there is such a need felt to "kick the 5D in the testicles" when ever the camera is mentioned.

Relax, Justin. The 5DII "House" episode just aired. The debate is over for me. I don't know if the 5D is as good as Red, but it's certainly as good as the 35mm film that the "House" crew was using before. I keep ping ponging back and forth between last weeks episode and this weeks 5D episode. I really can't tell the difference. The 5DII is good enough for narrative broadcast work and hangs with 35mm. I don't see how anyone can say any different but that's just me.

 

[Michael Brennan]

House

House

.... I keep ping ponging back and forth between last weeks episode and this weeks 5D episode. I really can't tell the difference. The 5DII is good enough for narrative broadcast work and hangs with 35mm. I don't see how anyone can say any different but that's just me.

Hi Jerry,
would be useful to know your screen size, viewing distance and if you were receiving SD or HD transmission
cheers

Mike Brennan

 

[Andrew Rieger]

I think the whole question is kinda rhetorical. But it gave us something to talk about while waiting for the Scarlet announcement! Clever guy, that Jim.

What should we argue about next? I'm totally waiting for the mid-may update with baited breath. Really, I am! I just popped a breath mint so I'd be more kissable when I go out to the bars while I wait for the update!

This forum gets out of hand due to boredom. If we actually had some Scarlet info to talk about, we would never be arguing about the stupid 5D vs Red debate. I will say this as simple as I can, one body costs $2,400 and the other costs $17,000. Of course the more expensive one will be better. Props to Canon for building a camera that cost $2,400 that the studios believed in enough to shoot a TV episode with. That is reason enough the put it into the camera hall of fame.

Despite the flaws, the 5D will go down as one of the greatest imaging tools of all time. It is a camera that revolutionized the way we think about image acquisition as is the Red. Both cameras deserve display cases in the Smithsonian, both are modern marvels of engineering, both created entire aftermarket industries around them and developed passionate loyal followers. Both changed the way professionals view their tools, both created a demand for larger sensors and workflow streamlining and both have been significantly more successful than initially projected. Both cameras fought hard to gain industry acceptance and had to fight off critics resistant to change. Lets get real, take away the numbers and these two systems have more in common than anyone would like to admit. I say more power to both systems.

 

[Jerry W]

Hi Jerry,
would be useful to know your screen size, viewing distance and if you were receiving SD or HD transmission
cheers

Mike Brennan

It was viewed through SD Dish Sat, 36" CRT about 6-7 ft away. I haven't upgraded to the HD Dish package for my 52" LCD Samsung yet. Reports are that it looks superb in HD as well.

 

[Jerry W]

This forum gets out of hand due to boredom. If we actually had some Scarlet info to talk about, we would never be arguing about the stupid 5D vs Red debate. I will say this as simple as I can, one body costs $2,400 and the other costs $17,000. Of course the more expensive one will be better. Props to Canon for building a camera that cost $2,400 that the studios believed in enough to shoot a TV episode with. That is reason enough the put it into the camera hall of fame.

Despite the flaws, the 5D will go down as one of the greatest imaging tools of all time. It is a camera that revolutionized the way we think about image acquisition as is the Red. Both cameras deserve display cases in the Smithsonian, both are modern marvels of engineering, both created entire aftermarket industries around them and developed passionate loyal followers. Both changed the way professionals view their tools, both created a demand for larger sensors and workflow streamlining and both have been significantly more successful than initially projected. Both cameras fought hard to gain industry acceptance and had to fight off critics resistant to change. Lets get real, take away the numbers and these two systems have more in common than anyone would like to admit. I say more power to both systems.

Good points. That's a very level headed accurate assessment of the situation .... except for maybe "Both cameras fought hard to gain industry acceptance and had to fight off critics resistant to change." I would say canon more or less got drug into the fight by adding what they thought was a neat gimmick to their update of the 5D. I don't think they meant to make their whole video camera line up obsolete.

 

[Jarred Land]

I keep reading many (some good ) arguments in this thread.. but they all at some point contain the words " it is good enough " in them. That is great if people are happy with "good enough" but that really is the whole point of this discussion.... It's our mission to make tools for people that are not just "good enough". Good enough is not good enough. If you need to actually say "it is good enough" then it is really not.

We strive to eliminate the compromise. We get to see what people can create with " Great " instead of " Good " every day. It's why we do what we do. It is why we don't make cameras that shoot with the same resolution that I watch apple.com trailers on my laptop in bed. For us, It's just not good enough.

Sometimes in the midst of a design exercise late at night , when we are all incredibly tired, sometimes someone says " that's good enough " .

That's when we put a new pot of coffee on.

Some people get it.. some people don't. and that is ok. I could not imagine anyone shooting anything on SD definition today, even though that was "good enough" just a few years ago. In a few years I am betting everyone looks back at 1080 the same way.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Jarred your last line is telling.

I know people who are producing content for SD who shoot on the RED because SD is not good enough. Nothing is good enough, so when you produce something that is good enough push it that little further. Because we know you guys can.

 

[chrislancaster]

i know 2k is higher resolution than 1080p but where does this put Scarlet ?

Are you guys going to scrap it?

I know 1080 p would be undesirable for cinema projects but what about weekend trips and vacations I'd love to have a scarlet for that.

I want to be able to look back on my memories in the amazing way i saw them in real life. (or close to)

I'd love to take scarlet to the Vegas Grand Prix (hoping it makes a come back) or other similar events. I really am looking forward to those days ahead. :thumbsup:

 

[Luis Melgar]

That's when we put a new pot of coffee on.

Oh my coffee!!

I had put a pot on the fire half and hour before read it... Just before conect to the forum... And thank goodness you wrote it. I had forgot it.

It's strange how a man can write something in California, be read a few minutes later in Spain and it's make me to save my pot of coffe... :beer:

Thanks Jarred!

 

[Lee Saxon]

Oh God! Stop! It's a 1080p camera the same way the R1 is a 4K camera.

Come on, if you measure the resolution of a 5D2 you'd have to be generous to give it more than 720p [snip]

The "way" i was referring to with "5D 1080p in the same way R1 is 4K" was in terms of pixel dimensions.

Ironically the fact that several people assumed I was talking about measured resolution bears out the point I was trying to make in the post, which is that we need a clearer way to distinguish when we're talking about measured resolution and when we're talking about pixel dimensions.

Seriously, it causes like half the fights/discussions on this board.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

A good MTF plot tells all!

Lee, you're right about how just stating the container size doesn't tell you anything about what's in the container. Sometimes what's in the container might appear to be the same size as the container say, but have a spiky surface and put holes in the box. That'd be aliasing. Sometimes what's in the container is not a nice solid mass, but a soft fluffy cloud, which we could think of as low resolution.

Graeme

 

[Carl Weston]

I'm shock that this discussion hasn't been locked..The Reduser forum usually doesn't allow a free open debate about other ---->(NON RED CAMERAS) <----

Did you notice I didn't say Canon 5D...oOps!...Dam!..... Scarlet S35 I can't wait!!

 

[Michael Hastings]

I'm shock that this discussion hasn't been locked..The Reduser forum usually doesn't allow a free open debate about other ---->(NON RED CAMERAS) <----

Did you notice I didn't say Canon 5D...oOps!...Dam!..... Scarlet S35 I can't wait!!

As long as it doesn't deteriorate too badly, they'll let it go.

 

[Jim Retar]

Surely it is up to the consumer to decide when good enough is good enough.... not the home cinema enthusiast, not the kid downloading simpsons off a stream, not the people selling 4k cameras or using 4k cameras.... but the general public who pay for content.

From everyone I know who has 1080p HD and a set of good HD channels.... 1080p IS good enough.

Deciding whether 4k or 3D will be the next consumer step up is probably a more important question, in my eyes.

The step up from 1080p to 4k is nowhere close to the step up from SD to HD in the eyes of most consumers (on a 30"-40" screen). Regardless of what anyone says on here.... go out and do a test on 100 consumers.... 1080p to 4K will not be such a magic step as SD to HD

The step up from 1080p to 1080p 3D would be hugely noticable though (for better or for worse, personally I'm not convinced by 3D as a home format).

If you can shoot and finish on 4K.... great. But to think that the world will be full of 4k TV panels anytime soon is unlikely.

 

[joshua csehak]

It was viewed through SD Dish Sat, 36" CRT about 6-7 ft away. I haven't upgraded to the HD Dish package for my 52" LCD Samsung yet. Reports are that it looks superb in HD as well.

Yeah, in SD, resolution-wise, 5D footage is gonna look the same as footage from a Red, 35mm film camera, or IMAX camera.

Go up to 1080p, and that's where you'll see the resolution limitations of the DSLRs. Simply put, it's fuzzy. I want to say "you get what you pay for," but that's not really the case, is it? Because with the Red One, you get way more than what you pay for. Or maybe it's with the f950 and Red's competitors, you get way less than what you pay for? In any case, a DLSR is 1/10 of the cost of a Red One, and I'd say offers 1/10 of the ability, image quality, power, and features.

 

[joshua csehak]

From everyone I know who has 1080p HD and a set of good HD channels.... 1080p is good enough.

What you have is always good enough, until something better comes along, and then you can't imagine how you ever put up with it.

 

[Carl Weston]

Here in nyc there's a producer right now (as I type this) choosing good enough ...7D, 5D,550D...over the clearly superior RED everyday!..how much of the anger towards the 5D is about losing jobs to a $2400.00 camera..I wonder???...Me and my HVX200/35mm lens adapter are shut out of most music video work in NYC thanks to the HDslr revolutions..but I'm not mad..I've been patiently waiting for the scarlet to be released...Trying my bets not to buy a 5D..if the scarlet isn't shipping by the end of the summer I will spend my scarlet savings on a 5D..

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

We strive to eliminate the compromise. We get to see what people can create with " Great " instead of " Good " every day. It's why we do what we do. It is why we don't make cameras that shoot with the same resolution that I watch apple.com trailers on my laptop in bed. For us, It's just not good enough.

Sometimes in the midst of a design exercise late at night , when we are all incredibly tired, sometimes someone says " that's good enough " .

That's when we put a new pot of coffee on.

cmd C > cmd V > http://www.red.com/about_red/

 

[Chad Clemans]

In a few years I am betting everyone looks back at 1080 the same way.

I agree.

I look at 1080 right now with disgust, and 2k isn't much better to my eye. Until the guy or gal with the best eyes in the room can stand to stay, it isn't good enough for the people with the worst eyes in the room, because they want their friends there. An audience of one may be alright here and there throughout the week, but even watching movies is collaborative at the best of times.

 

[joshua csehak]

I look at 1080 right now with disgust, and 2k isn't much better to my eye.

That's cause 1080p is 1920x1080, which is basically the same as 2k (2048x1080, IIRC).

I dunno, I think a nice sharp 1080p (like captured by a Red, or scanned film, and scaled down) looks pretty nice. Maybe not good enough for the future, or for the theater, but good enough for my TV (which only goes up to 1080p).