FORGED - Shot on RED Weapon 8K

[Matt Hoover]

Just watched this on my 4k Eizo monitor...amazing, beautiful, words can't describe it. I could watch an hour or two of that – I wish it just kept on going. I'm surprised the sparks hitting the swordsmith in the face didn't catch his beard on fire. The lighting...just amazing also. Something to aspire to. Thank you for posting it!

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Majorly jealous dude! Kudos to you for making it shine!

 

[Emir Aksay]

Wow, great work Phil. The image looks so smooth, and great music and image combo!

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I was interviewed and this shoot was referenced by Engadget:

No offence to anyone, but the author has no idea what he's talking about. I agree with most of the facts he stated, but he shouldn't be opining about things about which he has no real understanding.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm starting to get an Otus woody myself. I'm still considering re-housed Leicas, but modern coatings and T1.4 is calling my name...

Cheers - #19

Having the same thoughts here. I think the trio of Otus primes are next up on my shopping list.

 

[Björn Benckert]

No offence to anyone, but the author has no idea what he's talking about. I agree with most of the facts he stated, but he shouldn't be opining about things about which he has no real understanding.

Which part do you consider that he have no real understanding for?

I did not find it to be that off, or what am I missing?

 

[Scot Yount]

Which part do you consider that he have no real understanding for?

I did not find it to be that off, or what am I missing?

I found it right on.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Having the same thoughts here. I think the trio of Otus primes are next up on my shopping list.

Don't do it, guys! Don't! They're way too good, too sharp and too clean for cinema. Go Leica R instead. The Otus lenses are excellent lenses with lovely bokeh and no noticeable aberrations - only the Leica S lenses are their equal. But they're too good for cinema. My point is that old-school lenses - albeit excellent ones in their own way - better suit a sensor like the RED than the Otus line would. The RED sensor, IMO, should be complemented by gentler optics (e.g. the Zeiss Standard Spees, the Leica Rs).

Just IMHO. It's not a binary proposition. I'd use the Otus lenses on a 35mm SLR, for sure.

Which part do you consider that he have no real understanding for?

I did not find it to be that off, or what am I missing?

Like I said, he listed a lot of facts. But he doesn't really appreciate why directors and DPs like film, he doesn't understand that digital is not all kittens and cinnamon, and he has a mere numbers-based approach to capture media.

Directors are not merely nostalgic. Nostalgia is actually a good reason to do something, but it shouldn't be the only one. I like film mostly because of its aesthetic quality. I also like the 'nostalgic' aspect of it, although I have nothing against modern stocks.

And digital capture and exhibition is just so easy, simple, reliable and cheap, is it? Yeah, maybe on Super Extra Fantasy Island Plus 2016, where puppies never grow up, your feet never get dirty, women have silky hair that flows and tumbles like milk & honey, kids have blue eyes and butterflies land on your nose.

Resolution, bit depth and ASA are extremely important, but the subjective element is equally important.

Having said all that, I probably would choose the RED to shoot an IMAX movie. Aesthetically I'd prefer 65mm, but other factors I think are more important in this context. It would be my preferred compromise.

 

[Phil Holland]

Just watched this on my 4k Eizo monitor...amazing, beautiful, words can't describe it. I could watch an hour or two of that – I wish it just kept on going. I'm surprised the sparks hitting the swordsmith in the face didn't catch his beard on fire. The lighting...just amazing also. Something to aspire to. Thank you for posting it!

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Working on the "right way" to release this as downloadable, high quality content at the moment. But I have to say watching the master file in 4K on a 4K display is very, very nice. Going to try to get this on an 8K display in 2 weeks to see what it looks like at capture, finished, and displayed resolution.

Having the same thoughts here. I think the trio of Otus primes are next up on my shopping list.

Whelp, I'm in love with them and there isn't anything like them really. Technical top marks and actually a lovely character to the image, which is sometimes tricky.

Full disclosure, fairly recently I became a Zeiss Ambassador. However, that happened well after I started truly liking what I was getting out of the Otus primes. I wrote a fancy article on the Lenspire page about them:
http://lenspire.zeiss.com/en/zeiss-otus-in-focus/

Now that there's 3 very useful lengths, I'm real curious about where Zeiss goes from here with this series.

No offence to anyone, but the author has no idea what he's talking about. I agree with most of the facts he stated, but he shouldn't be opining about things about which he has no real understanding.

I truly wish I could explain some of the conversations I've had in the last few days. Between this interview and the ASC Awards I've had some fascinating conversations regarding film, digital cinema cameras, projection, etc...

I felt I needed to add a bit more of my POV to that article, so I submitted this reply and hopefully this explains a few things. I truly wish my full interview could be part of the article, but I essentially wrote a small book to answer a few of those questions.

I want to make a few points clear before I'm set on fire by industry folks who may not fully understand my POV. Film is a medium and a choice, and I think as a capture medium it should still be used for many years to come. Projection-wise, not-so-much. I think digital projection is superior in many ways personally. Film is the gold standard and what we should aim for. Specifically a few digital cinema camera manufacturers have been targeting and homing in closer to capturing more film-like images. We've met and exceeded certain aspects when it comes to pure technical merit. However, if we are talking proper 16 bit scans of quality film stock at various formats (negative sizes) that's still a tough thing to conquer when it comes to pure quality. The sad thing is how much of the larger format motion pictures and even S35 productions are tackled through post and delivery. 4K needs to be the standard for S35 in my opinion as it's "right" when we talk film format to resolution relevance, which I feel is very important. When talking VistaVision, 65mm 5-perf, or 15-perf IMAX that should technically increase accordingly when going through any sort of digitizing and post production. However, that's not how the world has been working sadly. Which is a shame.

The important thing is as of just 2-3 years ago we have had a very valid digital film alternative for those who chose to go that route. And there's many reasons why. Cost, speed, quality, cleanliness, 3D, look, easy of use, flexibility in post, predictable results, etc... Everybody has their own truths when it comes to what and why they are choosing anything. There are pros and cons of film and digital. This is always going to be the case. Having a film background (especially down to the film scanning, recording, and colorist side of things) has informed my camera selection in recent years and if we weren't getting something close to this golden standard you would be reading a very different grumpy POV about how manufacturers need to reach further and higher. And to that note, developments and advancements still need to be made. It will sadly come at the cost of heavier data as we need to move to a "thicker" digital negative to truly surpass the pure potential of film, but that's all on the horizon and sooner than we think. At the moment there's really on a few top tier digital cinema cameras that I consider true digital film alternatives, and for some, a digital film replacement.

In these times where our future is UHD, 4K, 8K, HDR, and 24-60p timebases everything has become more demanding. Times are moving faster. Some are more welcoming to the bleeding edge where things burn a white hot and tend to piss others off. It's actually nothing different than the history of film itself with the development of different formats and standards. This is oddly why VistaVision and now 8K VistaVision+ RED Weapon's potential hits me so deeply. VV was developed in a time where the industry was trying to achieve something bigger and better, both in the quality of what was captured as well as the audience's viewing experience. This mindset of advancing the art and science of motion picture technology is a key part of what makes the entire art form interesting. People will choose favorites. Formats, stocks, development processes, brands, lenses, lighting equipment, software, etc... However, ignoring innovation and therefore not exploring the creative potential what these advancements in motion picture technology hold seems rather close minded. Which is fine as that stubborn quality is certainly necessary when making hard choices. I personally am not too critical towards anybody who loves say S16 for instance. I certainly see the perspective. My POV is a bit different, yet I will always respect other's creative decisions. Especially if that's what actually is influencing their choice.

 

[Doug Laurent]

With the lack of 8K monitors, I really would like to see a 4K crop out of 8K Vistavision footage on a 4K monitor to find out how sharp and detailed it really is. And instead of bokeh material like in the great FORGED film, it would be helpful to see a scenery with every element being in focus like distant landscapes. Having some similar 8K scan from analog shot Imax footage for comparison and a 4K crop of that would be even better to find out how far digital 8K really is today. I hope Phil can deliver more 8K test content in the near future that helps to decide about upgrading to Vistavision!

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I, for one, welcome our new digital overlords.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Welcome the new boss, same as...

Cheers - #19

 

[Alain M]

Phil, amazing footage. You did it man...Again!

 

[Phil Holland]

With the lack of 8K monitors, I really would like to see a 4K crop out of 8K Vistavision footage on a 4K monitor to find out how sharp and detailed it really is. And instead of bokeh material like in the great FORGED film, it would be helpful to see a scenery with every element being in focus like distant landscapes. Having some similar 8K scan from analog shot Imax footage for comparison and a 4K crop of that would be even better to find out how far digital 8K really is today. I hope Phil can deliver more 8K test content in the near future that helps to decide about upgrading to Vistavision!

I like the way you think Doug. While I don't have 8K landscapes (yet!), I can show some of the experiments I've been doing "off the air".

Keep in mind an 4K crop from Weapon 8K is the same thing as a 4K crop from Weapon 6K, Scarlet-W, or Raven. If the REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio is identical, say 5:1, and the OLPF is identical in each camera it will be the same image quality.

The additional thing to take note of is that REDCODE RAW is a compressed RAW format with no image processing applied. My typical workflow for motion work is not to apply sharpening really at all, but there's been a few shoots over the years where I've experimented with different scaling and sharpening methods. In this case, I'll show both 100% crops with and without sharpening. This is from the MS of Tony near the end of the short, so keep in mind these are stills grabbed from motion and all that.

If you click on these they'll open in a new window or tab.

Full Image


2K Crop, No Processing



2K Crop, With Sharpening



REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio is tied to how much pure resolution potential is in there, but even at 12:1 at 8K FF I'm finding I can milk out some nice things. This certainly shows a lot of potential for those who want to take images in this direction.


Somebody asked to see my color grade and all that earlier. Here's a quick A/B comparison from what was captured at the time of filming, versus the final piece.

As Shot


Final Grade



This is also a nice frame to demonstrate some of the lighting. Frame right we have the daylight shooting through the shop windows, then on Tony's face there's a Litepanel 1x1 Bi-Color, the background is filled with one of the Nila Boxers bounced. The rest of the light comes from the sparks he's grinding. He had to move from area to area as he was working on the sword and we had to truck those Litepanels around pretty much every camera move. Luckily they are dimmable and lightweight. Most of the time it was sort of a combo of natural light, mixed with one Litepanel, and using the Nila Boxer. Though sometimes I went a little more surreal with some wrap or rim lighting. Just depends on what the frame was. Basically moved the camera first, locked composition, and lit the shot each move.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Thanks, Phil. I noticed some mild noise in the midtones - nothing wrong with it, but I'm guessing that sharpening slightly increased it? Also, the catchlight in Tony's right eye (not visible in the above crops) seems rather harsh, although it's very small. If you had not sharpened, it might have remained natural.

FWIW I like the Dragon straight out of the camera. I know, if everyone thought like I did, 50% of post houses would have to shut down, as there would be very little to do. I reject grading unless it's necessary - usually it isn't. Color timing and consistency are important, though, but that's a different thing.

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks, Phil. I noticed some mild noise in the midtones - nothing wrong with it, but I'm guessing that sharpening slightly increased it? Also, the catchlight in Tony's right eye (not visible in the above crops) seems rather harsh, although it's very small. If you had not sharpened, it might have remained natural.

FWIW I like the Dragon straight out of the camera. I know, if everyone thought like I did, 50% of post houses would have to shut down, as there would be very little to do. I reject grading unless it's necessary - usually it isn't. Color timing and consistency are important, though, but that's a different thing.

Those are just sort of examples of either a still workflow and/or if you choose to sharpen for motion. The 4K upload I made doesn't have anything other than my color work.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Hey Phil, these guys should compete on Forged in Fire!!!!

Have you seen the show?

I've been working on the promos for both seasons now. Here's the launch spot we did for Season Two, which debuted last night:

These guys would do AMAZING on the show!!! With this level of talent?

OMG.

PM me offline if you'd like me to get them in touch with production.

Thanks again for sharing this amazing piece!!!

best

 

[Phil Holland]

Hey Phil, these guys should compete on Forged in Fire!!!!

From what I understand Forged in Fire was greenlit due to Man at Arms:

Tony's worked on a couple hundred productions. Ran into his work years ago on set and that's somehow led up to shooting this little thing.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Tony's worked on a couple hundred productions. Ran into his work years ago on set and that's somehow led up to shooting this little thing.

Oh WOW, didn't fully realize how INSANE Tony's shop is! And that show looks great! Will check it out!

 

[Elsie N]

Phil, has Adobe's 8k version been released yet? I just saw a Redshark news Adobe Infomercial referring to 8k capability. Don't have my 8k sensor yet but would like to see how it is setup in Adobe.