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For those on the fence: A (unique?) perspective from a newbie

Peter Normandia

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I know a lot of people like me may be on the fence about investing in the Raven &/or Scarlet-w. As a newbie, who just made the jump, I wanted to share my (unique?) line of thinking here...

I currently own and shoot primarily with a GH4 (previously a GH3, AF100, DVX100, etc). I shoot a lot of things myself, but I also direct larger budget productions where I bring in an outside DP. On these bigger projects, my go to DP is a former red-one owner who now has an EPIC dragon. So I have plenty of experience with the workflow and benefits of using a red. I've been in love from the start.

However, like many, until recently the RED was too far out of my price range to even fathom. To be honest, even at its current price, it's still a bit of a risk for me to make this jump. I do NOT have a clear path laid out for why this investment will be worth it. While RED is a hot name that clients love to pretend they understand, I can't say if getting this camera will actually help me make back the money I invested (at least not immediately). I have faith it will, but there is certainly no proof that this is a smart investment.

So why did I take the risk and put down a deposit on the Raven i/o, and then switch to the even pricier Scarlet i/o pkg? The answer has nothing to do with cameras. In fact, my logic comes from previous experience in the mortgage/stock market when I first got out of film school.

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As a GH4 owner, I could not be happier. It's a great value, and perfect for many of the run & gun events I shoot on a regular basis. For example, to give you an idea of my level, I shot this video live with one GH3....


I do NOT plan to replace my GH cameras with the RED. My plan for the RED is to use it for higher end work (music videos, narrative, & commercials).

When looking into cameras, specs, and options, it was clear to me that I was basically going to spend $7-10k for a comparable camera with accessories (URSA, FS7, etc.) or more (c300).

After getting driven crazy by specs, form factors, accessories, etc., I had to look at it from a different perspective. That's where the stock market experience comes in.

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When investing in stocks, Warren Buffet always said you don't invest in the company. You invest in the CEO of said company. A company may get hot for a minute, but then the fast changing world sends them (& their investors) crashing back to earth. You need a great CEO (like Netflix's Reed Hastings) who can navigate the future, not bask in the now.

SO, like investing in a stock, I decided to throw away the specs and pretend that I had no idea what camera was coming. The question then is, which company would you invest your hard earned money in?

1. CANON - Reliable gear, great color science, but they continually hold back features on their gear while charging top quality prices. Plus, as they are a huge company, they have many other considerations when setting prices and releasing new cameras. I personally shoot for both CANON USA and CANON, Inc. (2 diff divisions of the same company) at many trade shows. The size and scope of this company is way bigger then their video dept. and video is low on the totem pole.

2. BM - Great entry prices, but the gear is never reliable or well thought out from a user perspective. I will never forget my first time testing the initial BMCC and realizing you could not change the ISO while looking at the image. LOL. They also seem to drop support for their old cameras when the next hottest item is released almost every year. This is also their first foray into developing their own sensor. Maybe they got it right. Maybe they've learned from their past when creating the URSA mini. Maybe they finally got it right. But its still just a MAYBE.

3. SONY - Forget the color science. I believe that's personal taste. I know a lot of owners who love their Sony cams and consider the FS7 the best bang for the buck. But this is another HUGE company with many facets to their business empire. This all needs to be carefully balanced when they release new gear. While the E-mount is lovely for adaptation, did they really need to invent a proprietary mount so you need an adaptor or a new set of lenses should you move on to a new camera post Sony. ALSO, how many of the worlds cameras also have Sony sensors in them? Are they really saving the best sensors for their cameras? Makes you think. Finally, if you own an FS7 and want to make a jump up, where do you go? F55? Not sure that's really worth it going forward. Personally, I think Sony comes in 2nd place here, but its at quite a distance in my eyes.

4. RED - the RED ONE still is a beast of a camera this many years later. RED USER is the top (or one of) forums for any camera company that i've encountered. They have a history of developing quality sensors themselves. Even with technology moving forward at a historic pace, their gear still stands the test of time, and they continue to create ways for their clients to move forward with technology (again pricey, but available should you need it). Their CEO, while flamboyant at times (mostly in the wee hours of the morning) is a man of the people, concerned with his user base, and personally obsessed with the actual gear (not just the bottom line). Plus, they are 100% dedicated to and focused on Digital Still & Motion Cameras with a clear path to upgrade should you need to in the future.

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After taking this perspective, it was obvious to me that if I was going to invest in a higher end camera, RED was by far the safest bet. And that is without even considering the specs. You never know what the future holds, but I can't imagine any of these new DSMC2 cameras will be obsolete in the next 5 years. I also can't wait to practice with and master the capabilities this camera offers. That's how I'm planning to get a return on my investment: by improving myself (though it won't be immediate, that's for sure).

All in all, this is what makes me feel comfortable about my investment. For any of you in my shoes (low level clawing your way up), I hope this helps you take a new (spec-free) perspective on your next camera investment. I could just keep buying cameras every 2 years and hoping they work out as well as my GH4 has, but then again, that just spreads out my cost (not that much different in total if you consider new accessories, lenses, etc.), lowers my capabilities, and increases my risk.

Hope this (unique?) perspective helps anyone else on the fence!

Looking forward to joining & hopefully contributing to this incredible community. I've learned so much already.
 
Looking forward to joining & hopefully contributing to this incredible community. I've learned so much already.

Welcome home Peter, great to have you aboard :-)
 
Great take on things. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said invest in yourself. Short of having clients lined up and ready to hire you and your gear, the next best thing is to invest in yourself and if you are at the point where a RED will take you to new places technically and creatively and it won't bankrupt you then I say go for it.

I knew the Red One would get me at least 2-3 years. I had no idea that 8 years later I would still be able to make money using it.
 
Great take on things. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said invest in yourself. Short of having clients lined up and ready to hire you and your gear, the next best thing is to invest in yourself and if you are at the point where a RED will take you to new places technically and creatively and it won't bankrupt you then I say go for it.

I knew the Red One would get me at least 2-3 years. I had no idea that 8 years later I would still be able to make money using it.

As an OG from the start, thanks for sharing your perspective. Lets me know I may just be on the right track!
 
Confirmation bias. Invest in your craft not tech and do yourself a favour and read some of these threads about upgrading to newer models before making sweeping cliche statements about buying cameras every 2 years. Also consider the kind of work you are doing, workflow and deliverables when choosing a camera, the specs do actually matter.
 
Confirmation bias. Invest in your craft not tech and do yourself a favour and read some of these threads about upgrading to newer models before making sweeping cliche statements about buying cameras every 2 years. Also consider the kind of work you are doing, workflow and deliverables when choosing a camera, the specs do actually matter.

Not sure what 'confirmation bias' means.

I have been a longtime lurker here and have seen tons of threads debating whether to upgrade including your input in the GH4 thread. I am a pretty intense researcher when I make any purchase for my company. Hence why I decided to share my perspective which I thought was semi-unique based on what I have read, not cliche. I have invested in cameras just about every 1-2 years as outlined above, so that is where that came from. Started out with the original 24p, then jumped to HD, then to interchangeable lenses, then 1080/60p, then 4K, etc.....

Sorry my post left a bad taste. Personally I think investing in specs is short-sighted. Life changes quickly, as does the work I get. I may be able to get by with my gear now, but I'd rather invest in my future and expand my capabilities.

Time will tell. Thanks for the input!
 
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Wonderful perspective Peter! I'm in the exact situation - coming from the Sony FS100 > Blackmagic 2K > Blackmagic 4K & Samsung NX1, I've been mulling over specs on a daily basis, trying to decide which one to get as my high end camera. If it wasn't for the RAVEN/Scarlet-W, I'd be buying a URSA Mini so at least I crossed off one camera from my list....now to decide which RED camera to get!
 
..coming from the Sony FS100 > Blackmagic 2K > Blackmagic 4K & Samsung NX1...!

That's quite a journey Aaron!

SIDE NOTE: How do you like the NX1 - I've been interested in learning more about the h265 workflow. What are the major benefits vs. h264? Not going to matter once I go raw, but I'm still curious.

As for deciding b/t the REDs, my decision was based on the seemingly "future proof" options of interchangeable mounts & OLPF filters, plus not dealing with the Raven's crop factor for only $4500 more. However, I really don't think you can go wrong either way! I still go back and forth on it.
 
3. SONY - Forget the color science. I believe that's personal taste. I know a lot of owners who love their Sony cams and consider the FS7 the best bang for the buck. But this is another HUGE company with many facets to their business empire. This all needs to be carefully balanced when they release new gear. While the E-mount is lovely for adaptation, did they really need to invent a proprietary mount so you need an adaptor or a new set of lenses should you move on to a new camera post Sony.

I'm getting a Scarlet-W but I'm keeping the FS7. Why? Because it's an amazing camera and great for Docs / RunGun. Also, huge misconception on Sony Color Science. The latest CineEI and LC709a on the FS7 is very filmic and pushed by Sony as the settings to use. The problem is, there's about 1000 other color settings and people think they know best and get ASS colors. In this case, just stick to what Sony suggests you to use. I mean, you're coming from the GH series, which, IMO has a pretty terrible colors. FS7 look is a cut above IMO, having owned the GH2 before.

Also, E-mount is pretty great. You can adapt any lens and get Speed Booster for 1 extra stop, 5D Full Frame look and wider angle. That's is huge and something I will sorely miss on the Scarlet-W.
 
Hey Peter, enjoyed your detailed post above. And completely agree with your views. I'm going for the Raven and I'm a little bit salty of the Scarlet W people as the Scarlet W is out of my range. But there's nothing I need that Raven can't do, and I can still go for a Scarlet W in due time, maybe after I've sold Raven, maybe keep them both and run a 2 camera set up. Good problems to have!
 
Hey Peter, enjoyed your detailed post above. And completely agree with your views. I'm going for the Raven and I'm a little bit salty of the Scarlet W people as the Scarlet W is out of my range. But there's nothing I need that Raven can't do, and I can still go for a Scarlet W in due time, maybe after I've sold Raven, maybe keep them both and run a 2 camera set up. Good problems to have!

That may be the smartest plan of all - buy/sell then upgrade. Might have to rethink my jump up. Def good problems to have!
 
That's quite a journey Aaron!

SIDE NOTE: How do you like the NX1 - I've been interested in learning more about the h265 workflow. What are the major benefits vs. h264? Not going to matter once I go raw, but I'm still curious.

As for deciding b/t the REDs, my decision was based on the seemingly "future proof" options of interchangeable mounts & OLPF filters, plus not dealing with the Raven's crop factor for only $4500 more. However, I really don't think you can go wrong either way! I still go back and forth on it.

So I have both the NX1 and NX500. The NX500 is a nice pocketable cam with many of the same features as the NX1, but unfortunately it has a major crop in 4K which is why I ended up getting the NX1. I've been working with H.265 for the better part of 2015 and was a hassle since Adobe didn't support it natively until the most recent update (I had to transcode the H.265 clips into H.264 which was extremely slow). The major benefit of H.265 is the reduced file sizes and lower bit rates for 4K... but now there is news out which point to Samsung currently closing down the NX line of cameras (
http://www.eoshd.com/2016/01/the-latest-on-samsungs-nx-camera-business-shutdown-coming-to-the-us/) so I can't recommend anyone buying a NX now.

I'm pretty set on the Scarlet-W (not put a pre-order down yet) for the no-crop factor and 5K for 4K master capability. I love the all-black look of the RAVEN though which is really a minor hang-up for me.


 


So I have both the NX1 and NX500. The NX500 is a nice pocketable cam with many of the same features as the NX1, but unfortunately it has a major crop in 4K which is why I ended up getting the NX1. I've been working with H.265 for the better part of 2015 and was a hassle since Adobe didn't support it natively until the most recent update (I had to transcode the H.265 clips into H.264 which was extremely slow). The major benefit of H.265 is the reduced file sizes and lower bit rates for 4K... but now there is news out which point to Samsung currently closing down the NX line of cameras (
http://www.eoshd.com/2016/01/the-latest-on-samsungs-nx-camera-business-shutdown-coming-to-the-us/) so I can't recommend anyone buying a NX now.

I'm pretty set on the Scarlet-W (not put a pre-order down yet) for the no-crop factor and 5K for 4K master capability. I love the all-black look of the RAVEN though which is really a minor hang-up for me.



I found it strange that none of the new cameras from Nikon, Canon, etc., have h.265 (although Canon is not surprising lol). As for the RAVEN vs. Scarlet: after Darryl Harris (post above) mentioned his plan to buy the Raven, and then sell that and upgrade to the Scarlet-w when/if necessary, I'm rethinking my decision to move up.

I certainly will not need anything but a Canon mount to begin, and the OLPF filters are not really a necessity. The crop factor is the only thing that makes me lean Scarlet, but then again, even with the Raven, coming from a Micro 4/3 camera, my 'crop factor' will actually improve anyway.

Decisions. Decisions.
 
I certainly will not need anything but a Canon mount to begin, and the OLPF filters are not really a necessity. The crop factor is the only thing that makes me lean Scarlet, but then again, even with the Raven, coming from a Micro 4/3 camera, my 'crop factor' will actually improve anyway.

Decisions. Decisions.

The Samsung NX1 has a sensor size of 23.5x15.7 (APS-C), where the Raven sensor is 23.04x10.8 so my lens FOV will be reduced, which I don't want...so just another reason for me to go directly to the Scarlet-W which would for sure give me a wider FOV (25.6x13.5 sensor).
 
Peter! What a fantastic post.
I am in the same boat as you are right now. I started with the Canon 7D->Canon 6D->BMCC->BMPCC->Pre-order for Ursamini4.6. But I am absolutely at my end with BM. Its exactly what you are talking about. Investing in the company and the people that run the company. BM is 6 or 7 months PAST their shipping date and we haven't heard any update whatsoever on the cameras. Right before Christmas, I read Jarred's update on the status of all the cameras in the RED arsenal. That is how it should be, honesty, transparancy. Even though the update didn't get into specifics, for obvious reasons. Something as simple as that update puts alot of minds at ease for the people investing in your products.
I am still on the fence with making the jump....mostly because I am #7 at Adorama in pre-order for a mini46. I am thinking, however to just flip it on ebay for even more the second I get it ;) and buy a Raven/Scarlet-W.
Also, I just found out at a funeral that I am related to Jarred! Second cousins I think. I used to get the bottled Soda at Land's Happy Mart all the time!!! Edmonton, Canada!
 
So I asked in the "January 2016 Update" thread if the Raven would have an upgrade path as all other Reds have had.. Brent's response below. I was hoping it would be a yes, but it makes sense why it's not a clear yes. Scarlet W definitely has some advantages. I'm anxious for Raven.. And then I'm going to be anxious for Scarlet W. FOV, 5K, interchangeable mounts & olpfs, plus an upgrade path.. Ravens just the perfect price though :(


"For RAVEN, cannot confirm or deny at this time. Personally, I would not buy a RAVEN banking on an upgrade path when it is a known commodity with SCARLET-W."
 
Peter! What a fantastic post.

Also, I just found out at a funeral that I am related to Jarred! Second cousins I think. I used to get the bottled Soda at Land's Happy Mart all the time!!! Edmonton, Canada!

Related to Jarred? And your buying a Mini46? I don't believe it! :smiley:
 
I'm getting a Scarlet-W but I'm keeping the FS7. Why? Because it's an amazing camera and great for Docs / RunGun. Also, huge misconception on Sony Color Science. The latest CineEI and LC709a on the FS7 is very filmic and pushed by Sony as the settings to use. The problem is, there's about 1000 other color settings and people think they know best and get ASS colors. In this case, just stick to what Sony suggests you to use. I mean, you're coming from the GH series, which, IMO has a pretty terrible colors. FS7 look is a cut above IMO, having owned the GH2 before.

Also, E-mount is pretty great. You can adapt any lens and get Speed Booster for 1 extra stop, 5D Full Frame look and wider angle. That's is huge and something I will sorely miss on the Scarlet-W.


I own the FS-7, A7sII, Canon C-Series, GH4, BM (all 3 of them) and decided to go RED. I work a lot with Alexa and RED and to be honest the Sony has the worst colors I could imagine. FS-7 is cheaply made and a way of selling F-5 and F-55 at a cheap price which is pretty unfair for all those that spent money on a Sony High end camera. As much as I respect your opinion the FS-7 has unpleasant colors and I use it from time to time. I have been using the GH4 3 times as much as I have been using the FS-7...not to mention the A7SII which I ONLY use for low light shots. It is a nightmare to grade and right out of the camera comparing with the BM in film profile gets knocked out imediately. I gave up low to mid range equipment meaning I am dropping Sony low end cameras and going to own higher ends starting with RED. All the effort we put on our work it will only pay off if we have a camera that actually is on par with the results we´re aiming. My daily rates are exaclty the same with a RED SONY or any other camera. At least my clients won´t frown when I say I will use a Sony instead of a RED...Unfortunately this is the reality...fair or not RED and Arri are the standards. At these prices cheaper cameras don´t pay off.
 
So I asked in the "January 2016 Update" thread if the Raven would have an upgrade path as all other Reds have had.. Brent's response below. I was hoping it would be a yes, but it makes sense why it's not a clear yes. Scarlet W definitely has some advantages. I'm anxious for Raven.. And then I'm going to be anxious for Scarlet W. FOV, 5K, interchangeable mounts & olpfs, plus an upgrade path.. Ravens just the perfect price though :(


"For RAVEN, cannot confirm or deny at this time. Personally, I would not buy a RAVEN banking on an upgrade path when it is a known commodity with SCARLET-W."

If I'm being honest with myself, I would be fine with a RAVEN. I don't "NEED" the olpfs, interchangeable mount, or an upgrade path right now. Plus, coming from micro 4/3, the crop factor / FOV is less of an issues for me. However, the point of investing in myself is create a better future where all of these options may play a roll. So if I can swing it, I'm going to stick with the Scarlet-w package.

I also think starting wth a Raven package, and then selling the brain and moving up to the scarlet-w later on is a viable option as well.
 
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