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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Focusing, or Image Sharpness, using Canon stills and LCD screen.

pete, looked at your R3D's and your problem really seems the same and yes, using so many elements of glass is definitely going to compromise it. But, have you used the Unsharp Mask function in RED Cine-X (I don't mean the parameter 'sharpen')? It will salvage a lot, and I don't think you'll be as worried :-)

edit: In your R3D's I see things work out better by
- adding a slight S-curve
- sharpen 3
- denoise 3
- unsharp mask 300
- keep radius default
 
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Thanks Jochem. I guess what I'm trying to ascertain is whether my results with a 100-400L and 2x extender at 2K 50fps on a Scarlet are going to be as good as a DVCPro HD 900 720p 50fps with a Canon HJ40. If so then I'll be happy as that's the camera my footage will be cut in with. For shorter focal length and lower framerates I'll definitely start shooting 3k and 4k as much as possible. Apologies, but probably like many others here I think I underestimated how key post processing is to checking things like focus when viewing rushes. I better gem up quick!

I've had a look through Red Cine-X and can't seem to find the Unsharp Mask function. Can't seem to find anything in the help menu about it either. Is it somewhere obvious that I'm missing it?

Many thanks again,

Pete
 
Recording at 2K with the Scarlet should yield a really nice 720p image.

Even finishing at 2K can be done if you use freely unsharp mask at radius 0.6.

a002c0030325di001000000.jpg


Click here to check the pic at 2K.
 
Thanks Alex. I'll have to do some reading up on Red grading over the next few days and start to experiment. Unfortunately the post house aren't setup for a Red workflow and require that I deliver in DVCPro HD codec so I guess I'll need to do some work to the files before I export them or all that sharpening/denoise later on a DVCPro HD codec will mean the image will start to turn to mush!
 
image.tiff

that's the top right of my screen with Red Cine X open. It's under the 'look' tab. I also had a play with your 2K raw files and the unsharp mask works really well on your files. I did find that 'radius' only works in 'whole numbers' (some said use .6 but I couldn't get it to work with .6, only worked once I got to 1.0, then only changed when I got to 2.0). I set radius to 1.0 then adjusted 'unsharp mask' up and down to see awesome results on your shots. From my experience, 2K is just fine foe shooting HD stuff; if it's what you have to shoot to get your zoom-in or frame-rate, then that's what you have to shoot, and you should AT LEAST have a comparable image to your other HD camera (BETTER THAN your other camera IMO, because you have Red's latitude). This sharpening is all you've been missing (it's exactly as others have said; other HD cameras you've used have on-board sharpening). I hope you now get the results you want.
 
Thanks Scott. I really appreciate that. I've had one too many sleepless nights of late worrying about soft footage! I've also realised I don't think I've been working with the up-to-date RedCine X. Just downloading now.

For birds in flight and certain behaviour it's obviously very useful to have higher framerates, but there are times when you want to shoot 25fps. Since the 2K recording doesn't resolve as well as a 2k crop from 4k or 3k, what would be a really great feature to enable would be to film at 4k or 3k, but you can apply a magnification while recording which crops the EVF/LCD output to view a 2k crop of the center of frame. That way you can frame properly in camera, still get telephoto enough, and just batch export your 3k and 4k footage with a 2k crop applied in post with a much sharper image. Unfortunately at the moment all we have is 1:1 while not recording, but Red if you're listening I know this feature would be very useful certainly in wildlife, particularly given the BBC are investing in Epics at the moment and will probably want to use lenses like the HJ40 which is designed for a 2/3 camera. With a bit of tweaking (pre-roll would be great too), the Red cameras could become really great wildlife cameras. Then all we need is a global shutter! ;)
 
I've been seeing a lot of "2k is soft" talk, and with the latest Cinema 5D "test" silliness I am beginning to get concerned that it may get out of hand. Is this a real phenomenon, a function of relative expectations, poorly chosen format for the application, or something else entirely?

We should try and remember a few things:

1. Scarlet was originally meant to shoot 3k for HD finish for good reason, and that may still be the best route for both Epic and Scarlet.
2. DSMC is for stills and cinema with an emphasis on the latter, and for that sharpness isn't always preferred.
3. Red designs their cams to be "most suitable for most projects" so see #2 (Sorry Graeme if I mis-quoted you)
4. RAW is designed to be flexible. No baked in, in camera sharpening is a good thing... Really, it is a feature. ;-)

It is quick, easy and most flexible to do sharpening operations in post and since we are post processing anyway, it is best to do it there. There is after all a tremendous amount of processing already happening in camera. Adding sharpening in camera is an unnecessary burden IMHO.

If you are worried that your footage is soft, take a deep breath and remember to do your post processing. That is how the system was designed to work.
 
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I would also add that when shooting 2k or 1k if and when we get it, it's best to use the lowest possible redcode so 4:1 in 2k when shooting 60fps and 3:1 in all other frame rates, and 1k at 3:1 as well. Doing that should help the image significantly along with using post sharpening (unsharp mask.... can be confusing to newcomers) and a well shot and focused image to begin with. But as with all things rigorous testing before going into the field or a production should be conducted when possible and time permits.
 
Pete Barden said:
Thanks Scott. I really appreciate that. I've had one too many sleepless nights of late worrying about soft footage! I've also realised I don't think I've been working with the up-to-date RedCine X. Just downloading now.

For birds in flight and certain behaviour it's obviously very useful to have higher framerates, but there are times when you want to shoot 25fps. Since the 2K recording doesn't resolve as well as a 2k crop from 4k or 3k, what would be a really great feature to enable would be to film at 4k or 3k, but you can apply a magnification while recording which crops the EVF/LCD output to view a 2k crop of the center of frame. That way you can frame properly in camera, still get telephoto enough, and just batch export your 3k and 4k footage with a 2k crop applied in post with a much sharper image. Unfortunately at the moment all we have is 1:1 while not recording, but Red if you're listening I know this feature would be very useful certainly in wildlife, particularly given the BBC are investing in Epics at the moment and will probably want to use lenses like the HJ40 which is designed for a 2/3 camera. With a bit of tweaking (pre-roll would be great too), the Red cameras could become really great wildlife cameras. Then all we need is a global shutter! ;)
Click to expand...

My Red One MX has pre-roll, so if Scarlet and Epic don't have that feature yet, they'll no doubt get it in a future firmware. I'm not quite sure what you meant about the 2k recording not resolving as well as a 2k crop. Red cameras all film as a crop. What I'm assuming that you're saying is that you'd like to be able to film at 4k, but frame it to 2K zoomed in, as if you're only filming a 2k area in the middle of the screen. If that's what you meant, that's exactly what Red cameras all do. So you could just film 4K, and make a custom 2K frame guide that sits in the centre, which you use to frame your shots. Then just crop all of your 4K in post. One of the beauties of having such high resolution in a world where most deliverables are 1080, is that you have so much room for reframing and cropping.

If you didn't know about 2K crop on Scarlet, check out Phil's post here http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?66210-Scarlet-X-Data-Sheet it's mega-helpful.
 
That's good to know the Red One has pre-roll. Fingers crossed on that one. What I meant about the 2k recording not resolving as well as the 2k crop was that when you record in 2k mode the picture is softer than if you shoot in 4k mode and then crop to 2k in post. Sorry I might not have phrased that very well. I did some tests yesterday and saw how clear the difference is between them. I was hoping to do all these tests before I left Bristol, but I sat about for over four months waiting for my Scarlet and then two days before I had to leave for the field it turned up so now I'm stuck on an island with no post houses! Fortunately I now have internet.

I had a read through Phil's post but I don't think it mentioned what I was hoping to do. Do you mean that if you filmed in 4k that in the EVF you would see the full 4k image but just in the centre there would be frame guides for the 2k? What I was suggesting was that you film in 4K, but that in the EVF you have an option to see only a 2K crop of the 4k recording that fills the entire viewfinder. Because of the long lens work for wildlife the depth of field can be ridiculously shallow sometimes so for critical focus we'd really need to see the 2k crop full screen in the EVF.
 
Pete Barden said:
That's good to know the Red One has pre-roll. Fingers crossed on that one. What I meant about the 2k recording not resolving as well as the 2k crop was that when you record in 2k mode the picture is softer than if you shoot in 4k mode and then crop to 2k in post. Sorry I might not have phrased that very well. I did some tests yesterday and saw how clear the difference is between them. I was hoping to do all these tests before I left Bristol, but I sat about for over four months waiting for my Scarlet and then two days before I had to leave for the field it turned up so now I'm stuck on an island with no post houses! Fortunately I now have internet.

I had a read through Phil's post but I don't think it mentioned what I was hoping to do. Do you mean that if you filmed in 4k that in the EVF you would see the full 4k image but just in the centre there would be frame guides for the 2k? What I was suggesting was that you film in 4K, but that in the EVF you have an option to see only a 2K crop of the 4k recording that fills the entire viewfinder. Because of the long lens work for wildlife the depth of field can be ridiculously shallow sometimes so for critical focus we'd really need to see the 2k crop full screen in the EVF.
Click to expand...

Try the latest Redcine-X PRO:
https://www.red.com/support/all/downloads/26/release_history

Although Redcine-X still works, Red have moved onto developing the PRO version, and haven't updated Redcine-X non-Pro for quite a while.

All the Red cameras shoot lower resolutions as a crop from the full sensor. So when Scarlet records 2K that is a 2K centre crop of the sensor, and you will see the 2K framing filling the LCD/EVF. Ie 2K recording is in theory EXACTLY the same as a 2K crop from 4K/3K, and the resolution/sharpness should be EXACTLY the same. So why you are seeing a difference in your tests is uncertain. Are you viewing frames at full best debayer at actual size? Can you post some examples?
 
I've just ordered a second hand Canon 500mm F4.5L this evening. I'm hoping it will deliver better results and to be fair I was pushing the 100-400 by shooting mostly at 800mm with a 2x extender. It was never going to be that sharp. I think I'll try the 500mm and then if I need to go longer use a 1.4x extender.

Yes, I downloaded Redcine-X Pro thanks. I'm going to try and get to grips with it over the next few days.

That's weird. I just went to export the 2k and 4k stills as examples, but now viewing them in Redcine-Pro X they look identical. I'm not sure what the reason was, but when I viewed them in the old version of Redcine the 2k was a lot softer. I'm guessing it was user error. Am I going mad or did I not read that cropping from 4K to 2K in post gives you a sharper image than recording 2k in camera?
 
Pete Barden said:
...That's weird. I just went to export the 2k and 4k stills as examples, but now viewing them in Redcine-Pro X they look identical. I'm not sure what the reason was, but when I viewed them in the old version of Redcine the 2k was a lot softer. I'm guessing it was user error. Am I going mad or did I not read that cropping from 4K to 2K in post gives you a sharper image than recording 2k in camera?
Click to expand...

SCALING from 4K (or 3K) to 2K (or 1080p) in post gives you a sharper image than recording 2K in camera.
 
The Canon 24-70mm lens is an ok lens for DSLR work but a terrible lens for Scarlet. It works ok in the 50 to 70 mm range but anything wider will be very very soft, get a cheaper f1.8 28mm Canon lens if budget is an issue.
 
Joel Mielle said:
The Canon 24-70mm lens is an ok lens for DSLR work but a terrible lens for Scarlet. It works ok in the 50 to 70 mm range but anything wider will be very very soft, get a cheaper f1.8 28mm Canon lens if budget is an issue.
Click to expand...
How is it OK for 22 MPix DSLR but not for 15MPix Scarlet? Can you explain that?
 
OptiTek said:
How is it OK for 22 MPix DSLR but not for 15MPix Scarlet? Can you explain that?
Click to expand...

It's not ok for a 22M DSLR Photo camera, but it's ok for a cropped 1080P DSLR video camera (just). (Can't comment on 5D III as haven't tested yet) Throw it on a 4K Scarlet and you can really see the softness as compared to a prime Canon lens. For 4K footage you need something more than just ok otherwise you're almost back to DSLR quality for a much bigger investment. Once you own a Scarlet you can't really skimp on Good lenses and good filters if you want that "WOW" image you see at the cinemas.
 
Joel Mielle said:
It's not ok for a 22M DSLR Photo camera, but it's ok for a cropped 1080P DSLR video camera (just). (Can't comment on 5D III as haven't tested yet) Throw it on a 4K Scarlet and you can really see the softness as compared to a prime Canon lens. For 4K footage you need something more than just ok otherwise you're almost back to DSLR quality for a much bigger investment. Once you own a Scarlet you can't really skimp on Good lenses and good filters if you want that "WOW" image you see at the cinemas.
Click to expand...

I think he meant, how could this exact same lens take perfectly acceptable 22mp+ still images on a DSLR, but then on the 14mp Scarlet it's not sharp enough (Scarlet is, after all, taking twenty-four ~9mp frames a second [14mp is 5k only]). It's sound logic, unless the DSLR is doing some aggressive sharpening/correction in-camera that the Scarlet is not doing (which is possible.)
 
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