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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

First Look: Interchangeable OLPF on Dragon

Just on that youtube video I see a real difference in the brown tones with the edge being given to STH. I always felt the real difference between film and videoish looking images was how brown is reproduced, leather, wood, etc.

not that LLO is by any means videoish, just that STH is that much more filmic to my eye.

That's doesn't matter to everybody, I know. I could look at this 20 times just focusing on different things in the image.

Thanks Phil, looking forward to having these options, but it's nice to have the peek.


Battistella
 
David Battistella said:
Just on that youtube video I see a real difference in the brown tones with the edge being given to STH. I always felt the real difference between film and videoish looking images was how brown is reproduced, leather, wood, etc.

not that LLO is by any means videoish, just that STH is that much more filmic to my eye.

That's doesn't matter to everybody, I know. I could look at this 20 times just focusing on different things in the image.

Thanks Phil, looking forward to having these options, but it's nice to have the peek.


Battistella
Click to expand...

I want my brown skin to look its best on the Dragon! :laugh:
 
Phil,
I just received my battle-tested epic dragon. I requested the v1 OLPF. I received it yesterday. In the menu it says lowlight OLPF. I then saw your updates saying the original had been tweaked, which made me wonder which version I had in my cam. I asked my rep, and he said:

There has been no physical change made to the Low Light Optimized OLPF glass. The changes will be seen in the firmware settings of the camera that take place only after your camera has been sent in for the OLPF modification. The physical change is in the OLPF harness that allows it to be swapped.

Just trying to figure out what's going on. Because there is a user installable swappable OLPF module, so why would Red need to install the firmware? What have you been using?
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
Phil,
I just received my battle-tested epic dragon. I requested the v1 OLPF. I received it yesterday. In the menu it says lowlight OLPF. I then saw your updates saying the original had been tweaked, which made me wonder which version I had in my cam. I asked my rep, and he said:

There has been no physical change made to the Low Light Optimized OLPF glass. The changes will be seen in the firmware settings of the camera that take place only after your camera has been sent in for the OLPF modification. The physical change is in the OLPF harness that allows it to be swapped.

Just trying to figure out what's going on. Because there is a user installable swappable OLPF module, so why would Red need to install the firmware? What have you been using?
Click to expand...

According to Jarred there has been tweaking. That can mean a bazillion things, but the images I'm getting out of the Low Light Optimized OLPF are somewhat different than the V1 OLPF. Mainly I'm seeing "less harsh orbs".

Jarred Land said:
Once we committed to the swappable OLPF it gave us the opportunity to dial each OLPF into getting the best image from a specific use case.
Click to expand...

I have theories and thoughts, but mainly what it looks like is some of the artifacts have been slightly improved.

The firmware adjustment I believe allows for the camera to accept OLPF calibrations/profiles.
 
So to be clear, we are basically talking a firmware tweak, the OLPF's are the same, so the V1 olpf I have in my cam should be seeing the improvements as long as I have the firmware, do you have special unreleased firmware?
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
So to be clear, we are basically talking a firmware tweak, the OLPF's are the same, so the V1 olpf I have in my cam should be seeing the improvements as long as I have the firmware, do you have special unreleased firmware?
Click to expand...

Nope, I'm on the latest.
 
Phil Holland said:
This is Phil broadcasting from the dangerous streets of Hollywood. Like literally in the street.

Im still out shooting, but I can initially confirm that the orbs are far, far lessened. I dont know if that will turn your frown upsidedown, but these car headlights arent doing anything near what they used to.

Jarred confirmed via email and this thread that theres been a bit of a revised idea od what the V1 OLPF did and I can confirm that the Low Light Optimized OLPF is different.

Images soon. Trying not to get run over. And yes, I shot some flashlight stuff.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it's better than before - I see that already in what you have shown so far.

However, since 60%-70& of what we do is "for night" we need both low light performance that is at par or better then MX (OLPF 01 seems to indeed deliver that) AND rendition of in-frame bright lights that is at par or better than MX, at the same time, in the same shot (no OLPF switch), because so many things we do have both those needs, in the same shot. MX is very good with both those things. "Better" and good enough for my standards - and my frequently encountered shooting situations - are two separate things.

As I've said a working DP needs honest disclosure of performance, warts and all, not "selling". There is no possible way to fool a working DP, really, because we just do our tests and find out for ourselves in the end, and if we feel we have been misled or that known problems have been hushed in any way, even vaguely, that is not positive, because rather than swaying our decision making at all, the "seller" has merely caused us annoying inconvenience and created mistrust.

I feel Arri si doing that now with their 3.2K bayer sensor uprezzed to 4K, and then randomly called 4K. Bad move on their part, and many working DPs with post knowledge are not impressed. Alexa resolves 2K, very, very well. Be honest Arri, tell us the truth, or next time we won't trust you at all.

Working DPs are not fanboys of anything, and I certainly am not. We just want performance and go with whatever solution gives us that performance and is best suited to the work we intent to do with the tool.

That said, please also test for gate flare shadow.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
I'm sure it's better than before - I see that already in what you have shown so far.

However, since 60%-70& of what we do is "for night" we need both low light performance that is at par or better then MX (OLPF 01 seems to indeed deliver that) AND rendition of in-frame bright lights that is at par or better than MX, at the same time, in the same shot (no OLPF switch), because so many things we do have both those needs, in the same shot. MX is very good with both those things. "Better" and good enough for my standards - and my frequently encountered shooting situations - are two separate things.

As I've said a working DP needs honest disclosure of performance, warts and all, not "selling". There is no possible way to fool a working DP, really, because we just do our tests and find out for ourselves in the end, and if we feel we have been misled or that known problems have been hushed in any way, even vaguely, that is not positive, because rather than swaying our decision making at all, the "seller" has merely caused us annoying inconvenience and created mistrust.

I feel Arri si doing that now with their 3.2K bayer sensor uprezzed to 4K, and then randomly called 4K. Bad move on their part, and many working DPs with post knowledge are not impressed. Alexa resolves 2K, very, very well. Be honest Arri, tell us the truth, or next time we won't trust you at all.

Working DPs are not fanboys of anything, and I certainly am not. We just want performance and go with whatever solution gives us that performance and is best suited to the work we intent to do with the tool.

That said, please also test for gate flare shadow.
Click to expand...


At this point I am woefully confused by the concept of me "selling" anything to anybody. I am spending a rather large amount of my time to literally to dig out these gremlins and artifacts hoping to reveal what this system can do for the working DP.

You've brought it up a few times and I have a thick skin, but I'm telling you man, stings a bit when I'm up at 3am processing test footage. Especially when I'm giving you specifically things you're looking for. I'm testing this stuff hard because I use these cameras to make a living and I understand the gravity of others in the same position.


Anyways. Gate Flare. Hard topic and a difficult one to give a "whole" answer to because every lens is different. Right now, this is what my 35mm T2.1 is doing:




This is improved at the top and sides of the frame, which is nice. It does depend on a million factors though. Lens design, mount, source distance, angle of incidence, etc..... So in this particular PL mount case it's a bit better than it was at 6K FF.
 
Phil Holland said:
At this point I am woefully confused by the concept of me "selling" anything to anybody. I am spending a rather large amount of my time to literally to dig out these gremlins and artifacts hoping to reveal what this system can do for the working DP.

You've brought it up a few times and I have a thick skin, but I'm telling you man, stings a bit when I'm up at 3am processing test footage. Especially when I'm giving you specifically things you're looking for. I'm testing this stuff hard because I use these cameras to make a living and I understand the gravity of others in the same position.


Anyways. Gate Flare. Hard topic and a difficult one to give a "whole" answer to because every lens is different. Right now, this is what my 35mm T2.1 is doing:




This is improved at the top and sides of the frame, which is nice. It does depend on a million factors though. Lens design, mount, source distance, angle of incidence, etc..... So in this particular PL mount case it's a bit better than it was at 6K FF.
Click to expand...

Hey Phil, thanks again for all the tests! We all appreciate it! I for one am struck by how much better the Lowlight OLPF is looking!

Those flashlight tests in particular are really good to see.

And the gateshadow DOES seem to be better!

thanks again so much!!

best
 
Personally, I feel the shortcomings of the original Low Light OLPF were blown WAY out of proportion. I have shot as recently as a few weeks ago with one of the original Dragon cameras that had a lot of low light work in it and the images are AMAZING. I can't wait to share the material with you all here, but you will all have to wait until the project is officially released. I promise you all, jaws will drop.

Original OLPF Dragon, nothing short of stunning... And for the last 8 months I've shot EVERYTHING else on the OLPF2... And I cannot complain that those images were somehow lacking. I will say I constantly adjust my exposure methodologies for each evolution of sensor and firmware. But that's normal for me.

NOW, I'll be putting the swappable OLPFs to very specific use and I'm excited to see the subtle gains made in each's performance. Phil's test demonstrates these improvements and like I said, I was completely thrilled with the previous iterations...
 
Hi Phil,
These tests are much appreciate, thanks for putting all your time and effort into it.
Will you be doing any exterior test to look at IR pollution?
Again, thanks for all your time on this.
-Joe
 
looking good and thx!
 
Thanks again guys.


Christopher Probst said:
Personally, I feel the shortcomings of the original Low Light OLPF were blown WAY out of proportion. I have shot as recently as a few weeks ago with one of the original Dragon cameras that had a lot of low light work in it and the images are AMAZING. I can't wait to share the material with you all here, but you will all have to wait until the project is officially released. I promise you all, jaws will drop.

Original OLPF Dragon, nothing short of stunning... And for the last 8 months I've shot EVERYTHING else on the OLPF2... And I cannot complain that those images were somehow lacking. I will say I constantly adjust my exposure methodologies for each evolution of sensor and firmware. But that's normal for me.

NOW, I'll be putting the swappable OLPFs to very specific use and I'm excited to see the subtle gains made in each's performance. Phil's test demonstrates these improvements and like I said, I was completely thrilled with the previous iterations...
Click to expand...


I agree Chris. You're one of the hardest working DPs I know and I know you have been using Dragon real hard for a while. I think from the early days of Dragon's introduction we all saw it's benefits and the "upgrade" over Mysterium-X and for some of us it made a lot of sense. There's been a lot of criticism, but there have been lots of real improvements in very important areas. And they continue to trickle in too.


Here's a 1GB file of 1080p of this particular shot at ISO 400, 800, 2000, and 800 REDlogFilm as well as a low contrast grade. Just a quick one, but it's pretty interesting and informative.



http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_redDragon_OLPF_LLO_lowLight_1080p.zip
 
You know, many "working DPs " don't share or show their tests to anyone.

Phil is doing this community a service on his dime and is presenting it in RED's house. If I read another post suggesting he is "selling" or "spinning", not disclosing or implying that he is working for RED or a fanboy or doesn't have post knowledge, then I'm going to act on that that feeling of wanting to barf that I get in my stomach when I read that stuff.

battistella
 
David Battistella said:
You know, many "working DPs " don't share or show their tests to anyone.

Phil is doing this community a service on his dime and is presenting it in RED's house. If I read another post suggesting he is "selling" or "spinning", not disclosing or implying that he is working for RED or a fanboy or doesn't have post knowledge, then I'm going to act on that that feeling of wanting to barf that I get in my stomach when I read that stuff.

battistella
Click to expand...

+1.
 
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