First Day with Dragon

[Florian Stadler]

Rob Peter to pay Paul. To get more highlights the available range was shifted down in the new calibration to give the appearance of improved highlights. The price you pay is noisier blacks.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Yeah, highlights are about a stop better. But I protect my highlights when I shoot so I didn't have a problem with the old calibration haha. I just like cleaner blacks personally.

Matt, I understand your use.
I prefer to "bring" home of good high lights, the more work I never use denoise, or because the customer wants the blacks "crushed" or because I use a lot of attention and a bit of light in more.
So between the "old" and "new" I prefer the Dragon with the new calibration.
But everyone has a different method and thought and it is fair to share.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

For guys like me that shoot ENG at times where i can't add more light or open the lens up, i need less grain in the shadows that i can pull them up. Right now i have to use a denoiser just to make the image useable at 2000ISO and even then the noise seems fixed and choppy and so Neat Video struggles and make what i can only describe a "soupy image" in the dark areas of the image.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I was surprised at the discrepancy too. I rolled at the same time with the same brand lens at matched stops. The same amount of light hit each sensor. I can see this stop difference in all scenarios (the 2 cameras match closely if I adjust the metadata ASA by a little under a stop between the 2. In anything but the most extreme underexposure situation this won't make a difference.

Maybe the takeaway is to rate Dragon at 400, rather than 800, if underexposure is a concern? Maybe that's why Mark Toia likes to rate the camera at 250?

I'm still evaluating the results and trying to make sense of it.

I evaluated and talked about that sort of discrepancy between Alexa and Dragon already a couple months ago here at the forum.

Unfortunately my server is down till next week and you can't see the examples.

"For any Alexa = Dragon comparison test

a film look image evaluation should match ISO alignment

by ratio 1:2 or even better at maximum ratio 1:2.5"

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?109981-OFFHOLLYWOOD-DRAGON-R3Ds-amp-MORE&p=1306148&viewfull=1#post1306148

 

[Paul J Steinberg]

Really? This black noise is on purpose? What I'm seeing is anything dark or grey is overwhelmed by the noise floor. If there is a black jacket in the shot you'd have to crush it down until there was no detail left in it.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

There's certainly a lot of interesting comparisons to be made in the responses of the two cameras, but I wouldn't be too hard on the shoulder rolloff since the Alexa is doing its Low-con action that it's famous for. The largest problem seems to be (and I saw this in the dynamic range testing) RED is clamping the channel on Dragon in the shadows, Alexa does a much better job of the noise gradating to black instead of being ON/OFF. This is creating very choppy noise. I think it's a calibration issue. In the Alexa there is actually a pretty good Green tint in the very darkest shadows. I think the red coloration in the shirt is actually a lens flare from behind his head. Once you apply so many stops of gain, even imperceptible lens flare become apparent.

That being said, it's certainly possible to match grade somewhat closely, a "recalibration" if you will. So hopefully RED can take a look at doing just such a thing.



Any improvements in color science from RED would be welcome by me.

Yes. The Dragon's noise needs a much more neutral calibration. Have the exact same issues with my dragonised Epic which already has the new OLPF.

Hans

 

[Tyrel Stumpff]

Just confirms how good the Alexa is and still is.

 

[Logan Smith]

Been testing my Dragon extensively. There's a lot of red noise in the blacks. If you pull out the reds in the shadows the noise looks fine. Of course you're stuck with a blue image though. Really hope Red comes out with a better calibration soon.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

Just confirms how good the Alexa is and still is.

Good to see someone from my home town on Redusers! Hope Medford doing alright.

 

[Will Keir]

+1.

I was actually considering keeping the old OLPF but I upgraded after our flare test which IMO wasn't an issue in our lighter test.

Might takes some months, I believe RED will make it right.

He did say that. Actually he said Dragon was a lot cleaner. No idea what happened calibration wise but I miss the old calibration to be honest. Low end is substantially noisier now and has a red tint to it vs. the old which was neutral in color. Hoping RED will come up with a new calibration or firmware update to fix this. At least it seems to be that way with everyones camera's so it's most likely calibration and not a fluke thing.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Just confirms how good the Alexa is and still is.

No one's ever debated how good Alexa is. In fact, you could argue that achieving Alexa DR and aesthetic is what's been driving RED for the past three years...except they're trying to squeeze it into a much smaller box, across 6K, and for a $9K upgrade fee. Certainly...a logistical challenge that would probably even make Arri's engineers tremble.

For me, Alexa's cost has made it primarily a RENTAL camera. Yes people own Alexa's, but it's much more common to rent. RED's pricing has always made it more attractive to owner operators, and RED has clearly maintained their commitment to this market...by offering a brand new camera to current owners for an upgrade fee.

I still can't believe Epic owners can upgrade essentially to a new camera for 1/6 the cost of a brand new Alexa. Which again, I think makes RED's mission pretty clear. They are not focused primarily on rentals, but just as focused on their owner operator base. I commend them for this commitment, as it's allowed a lot of us to enter the high end cinema market in a way we probably couldn't have done before.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

No one's ever debated how good Alexa is. In fact, you could argue that achieving Alexa DR and aesthetic is what's been driving RED for the past three years...except they're trying to squeeze it into a much smaller box, across 6K, and for a $9K upgrade fee. Certainly...a logistical challenge that would probably even make Arri's engineers tremble.

For me, Alexa's cost has made it primarily a RENTAL camera. Yes people own Alexa's, but it's much more common to rent. RED's pricing has always made it more attractive to owner operators, and RED has clearly maintained their commitment to this market...by offering a brand new camera to current owners for an upgrade fee.

I still can't believe Epic owners can upgrade essentially to a new camera for 1/6 the cost of a brand new Alexa. Which again, I think makes RED's mission pretty clear. They are not focused primarily on rentals, but just as focused on their owner operator base. I commend them for this commitment, as it's allowed a lot of us to enter the high end cinema market in a way we probably couldn't have done before.

Love what you said.

 

[TD Wood]

No one's ever debated how good Alexa is. In fact, you could argue that achieving Alexa DR and aesthetic is what's been driving RED for the past three years...except they're trying to squeeze it into a much smaller box, across 6K, and for a $9K upgrade fee. Certainly...a logistical challenge that would probably even make Arri's engineers tremble.

For me, Alexa's cost has made it primarily a RENTAL camera. Yes people own Alexa's, but it's much more common to rent. RED's pricing has always made it more attractive to owner operators, and RED has clearly maintained their commitment to this market...by offering a brand new camera to current owners for an upgrade fee.

I still can't believe Epic owners can upgrade essentially to a new camera for 1/6 the cost of a brand new Alexa. Which again, I think makes RED's mission pretty clear. They are not focused primarily on rentals, but just as focused on their owner operator base. I commend them for this commitment, as it's allowed a lot of us to enter the high end cinema market in a way we probably couldn't have done before.

exactly

 

[Will Keir]

Nice to have perspective.

I still can't believe Epic owners can upgrade essentially to a new camera for 1/6 the cost of a brand new Alexa. Which again, I think makes RED's mission pretty clear. They are not focused primarily on rentals, but just as focused on their owner operator base. I commend them for this commitment, as it's allowed a lot of us to enter the high end cinema market in a way we probably couldn't have done before.