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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Final Cut Pro can manipulate 4k files!!!

The only capability that FCP is stating that didn't exist in someother program before is native red support. Very Nice that they have that quick of an update, but I'm sure all the others will follow soon. It continues to bother me that FCP doesn't up its color resolution, you won't be able to finish on it for the big screen until it does. 32 float for intrenal processing is pretty much standard on all, but until you get higher color bit depth in and out it's just an offline editor.
 
Even if FCP6 brings in a sort of 10bit422 bottleneck in the workflow, wouldnt that be less important if you first processed your RAW footage in redcine? By doing basic color correcting work to the raw file, your taking advantage of the 12bit data before downsampling 'a little' to 10bit 422 for FCP. By the time you get to final color work in Color, you aren't doing anything drastic to wreck your data.
 
That depends on your output.
If you go to a YUV based tape format or Codec it doesnt matter as FCP supports 32 bit processing in YUV.

But if you want to go to a RGB based output, like film out, going either to YUV or 8 bit RGB is very bad.

Support 16 bit file I/O and 32 bit RGB processing would be the norm.
 
Maybe we should look at this in terms of FC server and the broadcast market. The current max quality standard for HD broadcast is 10bit 4:2:2. Whether it's HD from Satellite, or cable or DVD or BlueRay. Using FCP6 and Server appears to give you a great workflow for various broadcast outputs, including the internet. Did everyone miss that fact that compress is included with FC server?

But now you can also use FCP for full DI, not just offline, but as the final finishing tool, bringing everything in from the outputs of various vfx programs (ie fusion 5 on windows) via the server. If I understand, you could ouput dpx log from something like fusion or Nuke, upload the files to FC server, and because it's event driven, have it automatically updated in the FCP timeline.


This is extremely cool, and affordable.
 
Graham & co try to explain FCP 5 and 32bit float here

Need to read up on this....

Better explanation will be very appreciated.....

Cheers,
 
4k Finishing is the missing link with FCS2.

I can't see how you are supposed to finished at 4k without going to Scratch or Film Light which is expensive.

Hopefully RED have more to say on the subject as editing 4k is fantastic but Finishing is a major concern.
 
Anders Holck said:
Im afraid it's Color only that supports DPX sequences, not final cut pro.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, drat. Well, fusion can output to Quicktme using just about any codec you have installed. Lets hope Apple releases their new stuff on Windows Quicktime.

Still, being able to easily get them into FC Server is a great step forward.
 
But wait, the videos suggest you can take 4k RAW files straight off a Reddrive and edit with them. Wouldn't that suggest that you can also OUTPUT to 4k RAW, simply by outputing in current codec?

You could then take that file to Redcine and spit it out at whatever res/bit depth you wanted. Seeing as how most sequences all have the same color modifications, doing them all at once wouldnt be a problem.
 
PerfectOptics said:
But wait, the videos suggest you can take 4k RAW files straight off a Reddrive and edit with them. Wouldn't that suggest that you can also OUTPUT to 4k RAW, simply by outputing in current codec?

You could then take that file to Redcine and spit it out at whatever res/bit depth you wanted. Seeing as how most sequences all have the same color modifications, doing them all at once wouldnt be a problem.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking as well. Edit in Redcode 4K at whatever downsized resolution your computer can handle, then tell Redcine to output the selected clips in whatever DPX or TIFF files the program you use for finishing will acccept.
 
Gopher77 said:
The only capability that FCP is stating that didn't exist in someother program before is native red support. Very Nice that they have that quick of an update, but I'm sure all the others will follow soon. It continues to bother me that FCP doesn't up its color resolution, you won't be able to finish on it for the big screen until it does. 32 float for intrenal processing is pretty much standard on all, but until you get higher color bit depth in and out it's just an offline editor.
Click to expand...

So Avid Media Composer (software only) is currently 32 float for internal processing?
 
Avid Media Composer can render AVX 2.0 plug ins in 16 bit integer. No 32 bit float mode.
 
Jaime Vallés said:
Edit in Redcode 4K at whatever downsized resolution your computer can handle, then tell Redcine to output the selected clips in whatever DPX or TIFF files the program you use for finishing will acccept.
Click to expand...

This is the workflow I'm trying to wrap my head around as well. I have been looking at the redcine diagram for so long that I'm having a hard time readjusting. Now with the new Final Cut secrets announced you can go directly to editing (although how fast does 4K Redcode Raw edit and on which kind of machine?). Then to maintain the best quality you'd have to leave Final Cut and go to Color (for 2K) or a much higher end system (for 4K). Or convert to Pro Res and do everything in Final Cut at 10Bit 4:2:2 - the "offline" or "low-res" broadcast codec.

It's funny that ProRes is looked at as the "poor" resolution because we're starting with such a high res file with Redcode. 2K 10Bit 4:2:2 uncompressed is just OK because we want 4k! It's crazy how everything has spun on it's head. You have to remind yourself that eight years ago I was dancing around so excited that I could see a cross dissolve in realtime editing DV footage. If a 10 bit Final Cut 4:2:2 edit is "offline" editing you have to remind yourself that only a few years ago offline editing was OfflineRT. Right now with Final Cut 6 this "offline editing" is full HD broadcast quality. If you're still asking for more Color gives you super high quality 2K. Either way, edit 4k Redcode in Final Cut. Export EDL or go through XML into Redcine and then do a conform to your finishing format for Color or whatever other app you're going to use. Redcine has become the intermediary step between Final Cut and Color not the first step as I was planning it to be. This all works well, because it makes sense to take advantage of RAW and use it within Redcine to do some color correction and image manipulation before you generate a video file.

I wrote all of this so someone much smarter than I could correct any errors. Is this also what you guys (and girls) are thinking for the new RED workflow with Final Cut Studio?
 
Nathan Troutman said:
Is this also what you guys (and girls) are thinking for the new RED workflow with Final Cut Studio?
Click to expand...

Pretty much... But I do have a dumb-dumb queston... Is there any way to color correct in 'Color' and have all the processes re-applied to the original 4K material via proxy or something (sort of like rendering it out in the background?) I think I read somewhere that from start to finish [in final cut studio 2] one could end up with 4K output (even with Color).
 
Ok, let me get this straight. This is damn confusing.

To get beyond 10 bit 4:2:2 editing in Avid (except for keys which are 16 bit) you have to go to a $100K DS Nitris suite right ? All other Avid editors are 10 bit 4;2:2, plus you have to transcode to crappy DNxHD which is not a finishing format (whatever the marketing dudes tell ya). Regardless, you have to output a DPX file anyway.

tell me how that this Final Cut studio isn't an Adrenaline for 1/10th the price, plus having the ability to directly edit 4K files (without transcoding) ???

I'm seriously curious here. I'll buy whatever makes my RED baby happy. I'm editing agnostic (i've hired out suite time in the past) so i don't care. What I do care about is

a) the less transcoding steps the better
b) being able to finish (including cc) up to 1080p 4:4:4 RGB/2K and seeing the final product , not an SD downconvert (to check focus, color char's etc...)

I'm a director, not an editor, so if i'm missing sumptin' here please let me know :wink:

Like y'all, i'm curious as to how you could edit in REDCODE, then do a final mix and master in color , and output the highest rez and format youcan afford.

:beer:
 
Avid doesn't require you to transcode to DNxHD.

We're still trying to figure out if Final Cut requires a conversion to 4:2:2 color space. The question is: did Peter Jackson's production edit in FCP and then online on the Pablo? Or did they edit in 4:4:4 4k and then export from FCP.

I'm assuming to maintain quality they offlined in FCP (offlined in 4k perhaps) and then onlined in Pablo.

It's a mystery. At this point we just don't know how the whole FCP workflow is going to shake out. There still may not be any 4k 4:4:4 single solution, in which case you can choose any editor you want that'll export an EDL and the color space/codecs don't really matter at all, because you're offline anyway.

Personally I'll be viewing dailies in REDCine. Editing in Avid Xpress Pro in SD and conforming in another application such as Combustion, or else taking my footage if budget allows to a local Lustre suite.
 
im.thatoneguy said:
Avid doesn't require you to transcode to DNxHD.
Click to expand...
Everything I've read (and been told by Avid reps) is that to edit HD content (other than in Nitris) you have to transcode to DNxHD. If you can edit 1080p (4:4:4) RGB or 2K in Xpress Pro or Media Composer/Adrenaline, then I'd sure like to know about it:) One of the reasons we didn't buy an Avid suite was that, IMHO, you can't monitor a "true" HD output on it. The best advice i've gotten from a dp was to insure your image - focus, color, artifacting etc... - before it gets to the final master. Avid (up to Nitris) won't let you do that, as far as I know.

People say, 'just bring it into a online suite to do that', but if you are off before that (in the aforementioned) then your costs become exponential.

What I expected from Avid was

-> a substantial price drop Media Composer/Adrenaline
-> true HD monitor out/realtime
-> future Redcode "native"editing (that was a long shot)
-> some sort of cross promotional color grading app

What I got was

-> our product is being surpassed by the field, so we're going to an open development platform to keep the software selling as long as we can
-> we're keeping our prices as high as we want, screw you.

Personally I'll be viewing dailies in REDCine. Editing in Avid Xpress Pro in SD and conforming in another application such as Combustion, or else taking my footage if budget allows to a local Lustre suite.
Click to expand...
That sounds perfectly feasible to me, depending on your deliverable and if you want to provide room for theatrical release (both DCI spec and film). If you do want to provide room for that or the possibility that you won't screen your project for distributors and notice a number of "possible" missed shots then that might not be good enough.

Like I said, I'm no editor, and my total experience editing is working with someeone who knows what they're doing in a high end suite for as little money as possible. I want to buy Avid because I wantt to bring the finishing as much in house as possible. Unfortunately, Avid seems to me like a few companies I can mention , a company who started out dominating their market, got complacent and egotistical, and eventually fell back to protecting their highest profit margin products until foreign multinationals entered when their tech and trade made it lucrative.

I really can't find a way to justify buying a whole set up just to hand off the project half way through to an online post pro company...not when RED is so f#ing cool.

BTW, I don't need a 4K finish or even to edit in 4K, specifically. If I'm going for a 4K finish I will have the backing to do it. Otherwise a 2K finish is more than suffcient for the kind of deliverables (even limited theatrical runs) we'll need, IMO.
Like i said, i may not know a whole bunch, so if you want to correct me feel free :-) thanx for responding to my post, Gavin.

:beer:
 
So if you're not an editor, are you going to do your own finishing or just hire someone to run your suite?

The workflow is really simple to me:
Shoot RedCode, edit RedCode and color correct RedCode. Output to whatever format is needed.

Resolution depends on if using Color for 2k or Scratch for 4k.

The missing pieces will be what will the 2k/4k color space be and how do you plan to calibrate for it with accurate monitoring.

I see no point in Rec709 if doing 2k/4k, that's for HD, you can output a Rec709 version later.
 
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