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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Feel robbed

Tim Whitcomb said:
In YOUR opinion...more filmic?
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That is why I wrote: "in my experience" so yes, Tim, in my opinion. Sorry if this was unclear. No I have not seen The brothers Grimm but I have seen "in time", "hugo", "game of thrones" and "skyfall" and find them, in my opinion, indistinguishable from film - which is a look I personally prefer. I don't much care for the look of Ghost Rider 2, Drive Angry or Lockout. Too clean and videoish to me. Other opinions may differ.

Also in my opinion the red cannot match the arri's DR or ability to mimic film's shoulder roll-off. Dropping in a digicon won't help that. Again: in my experience. Your milage may vary. I also prefer it's colour rendition generally and it's low light ability. If you prefer the Epic, then good for you. Whatever twists your top. I was hoping that Dragon may address my personal aesthetic preferences to be more organic and filmlike but was accused of insubordination for daring to question anything Red. Much like right now.

I don't have (or rather didn't) have any negative bias towards Red (as I own three of their cameras, two of their zooms, a set of their primes plus all accessories) and have shot on them for years since film went to the wall. My bias admittedly recently changed towards their company practices when they decided to devalue their cameras (and therefore my investment) suddenly overnight - but that has little to do with picture rendition. I went to Arri on the basis of market forces where I live. Nothing to do with brand loyalty. Further, there is plenty about the Arri that I can gripe about (I have posted a comparison which gives my opinions on either system - nothing is cut and dried). Accusing me of being a shill for Arri and brand loyal is, frankly, pretty silly and analogous to comparing people of contrasting opinions to Hitler. I couldn't give a damn about camera labels - but as a DP I care enormously about the picture. And yes, being a DP is a subjective thing. Always has been. If you know of any hard rules by which aesthetics are to be judged then you're obviously in a better position than I am.

I was responding to the oft mentioned notion that all the arri offers is brand loyalty and familiarity. There are other opinions on this.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I could argue the contrary. Does it fit reality?
Film like... What is that?
I m getting tired of those bold statements.

Pat
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Sorry to be tiring Pat. Feel free to add me to your ignore list as I have a couple myself on the board that I similarly find tiresome. I don't know if it fits reality. It's what I like the look of is all. Just one opinion. I was responding to the idea posted that the only reason the Alexa has gained market share was down to brand loyalty. Another bold statement. Some people prefer the look of the Epic others the arri others the 5d. It's all opinion.

Best.

J.
 
I've got to agree with James that Hugo, Game of Thrones, and Skyfall set the standard for organic looking digital films (in my opinion). I haven't seen anything like that from Red footage yet. I am really hoping Dragon changes that.
 
I would like to see 1/4 and/or 1/8 DigiCon example. I have yet to see it.

As for magenta highlights; that's exactly what DRX is for and it gets rid of it real quick.
 
While I am not a RED owner and therefore am not in a position to argue about how the price change has affected people who are, I'd like to point out something that I feel has been missing from the conversation.

I think that it is pretty clear that the price drop and its timing had a lot to do with competition, particularly from the F55 (I am not saying that the manufacturing costs have not decreased as Jim said, but I think that competition must have also been a significant factor). This competition will affect those of you that rely on rentals for your business as well. If the EPIC's price had stayed the same and your rates had stayed the same, you would probably be getting a lot more competition from the owners of other cameras in the coming year, causing you to either lose jobs or lower your rates to compete.

I am not saying that RED's calculus is necessarily the same as yours or that this will entirely make up for your lost camera value, but I think its worth pointing out that if RED figures they can make more money selling their cameras at a lower price given the market, you may be able to get more work renting cheaper.
 
Sam Eilertsen said:
I think that it is pretty clear that the price drop and its timing had a lot to do with competition, particularly from the F55 (I am not saying that the manufacturing costs have not decreased as Jim said, but I think that competition must have also been a significant factor). This competition will affect those of you that rely on rentals for your business as well. If the EPIC's price had stayed the same and your rates had stayed the same, you would probably be getting a lot more competition from the owners of other cameras in the coming year, causing you to either lose jobs or lower your rates to compete.
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Or we would also buy a F-55 if it's an overall better camera... based on a loan, based on the value of our Epics... :p

I guess this is why Red is lowering prices, Dragon has been delayed, and they need to lower prices to still be as relevant...
 
...maybe you are right. That the shot where I experienced this was just due to setting up the camera at wrong ISO, but unfortunately I can't find the .r3d of the shot right now, so I'm not sure... Anyways, natural highlight and over-exposure roll-off is not Red MX strongest selling point...
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
Well, you are wrong and arrogant. There are times when parts of the images would be better left over-exposed, unfortunately Red MX handles this rather poorly.
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Actually, I think he's correct. If you get magenta highlights, you are probably not handling your r3ds properly. Have you tried using DRX? It does a more than adequate job correcting magenta highlights quickly/easily (which only show up when you make drastic adjustments to ISO in RAW... something that Alexa can NOT do when shooting ProRes, as the image is baked in, which is how DRIVE was shot, no?).

Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
Well, you are wrong and arrogant. There are times when parts of the images would be better left over-exposed, unfortunately Red MX handles this rather poorly.
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Patrick Tresch said:
? do you mean that white overexposure isn't possible with RED MX
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Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
...maybe you are right. That the shot where I experienced this was just due to setting up the camera at wrong ISO, but unfortunately I can't find the .r3d of the shot right now, so I'm not sure... Anyways, natural highlight and over-exposure roll-off is not Red MX strongest selling point...
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So you publicly call him "wrong and arrogant" after he calmly explains why you're experiencing magenta highlights (and one way of how to correct it), and then in the next post say that 'he could be right and you're not sure'? Do you own a RED?
 
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Ah, maybe... I think I did not do any heavy changes to the raw-file. It happened while doing a panorama for a BG-sphere to be rendered in a CG-world. In one of the stitches, the sun hit the lens and that frame showed up as quite magenta, and I had a hell of a job trying to correct for it (this were shot on a Scarlet, so HDRx was really not an option at the time).
 
From the sounds of it, if one of the frames used for the stitching was shooting more into the sun than the others, the ISO would probably have been brought down in post to compensate for the additional brightness (unless they were riding the iris when shooting, which I doubt)... in that case, the shot would have done EXACTLY what Patrick was saying (and aggressive ISO reduction in post) and using DRX would have brought the highlights back to white in literally 2 seconds (the time it takes to adjust a slider.)

I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of new REDusers showing this kind of ignorance/incompetence, but I hope they aren't as ungrateful when someone offers a legitimate reason/solution/recommendation to their problems.
 
Mike P. said:
I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of new REDusers showing this kind of ignorance/incompetence, but I hope they aren't as ungrateful when someone offers a legitimate reason/solution/recommendation to their problems.
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Well I found the .r3d now. It were shot and processed at ISO 640.

I own two red-cameras. Scarlet #349 and Epic #716 And I welcome the Dragon "sensor" for Epic if it's as forgiving as Alexa's "sensor" (reason for quotation marks: there is more going on than just the sensor).

BTW: Sorry for contributing to making the last few pages of this thread into a mess.
 
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Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
http://www.gunleik.com/tests/alexmx/RED1_MX_and_Arri_Alexa/Introduction.html

Mike and Pat, I realise that this is not shot on Scarlet or Epic... But even though it's minimised on the new cameras, pushing the lights (on set) may produce similar results, at least that's what I've experienced.
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Huh? RED's colour science has moved forward since this, and now that DRX is fully enabled you can use a simple slider in RCX to remove the magenta from the highlights.
 
Liam Hall said:
This thread teaches me two things:

1. Investment in technology diminishes at an ever increasing rate, so only invest in what you need or can afford.

2. Filmmakers don't make good accountants.
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I would agree with that -
 
Dan Kanes said:
It's already too crowded here in LA, but I don't blame the camera manufacturers.
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Totally agree.
That's why slowly, but surely, majority of my work is starting to come from the outside of a country.
Most of the time I don't even bother to discuss those local LA offers of $1500 to grade a feature.
 
Ok,

Look at it this way. An epic that's 2 months old. Approx 40k with basics.

Yea everything loses value, but an artificial devaluation of the value of a product by manufacturer puts that middle owner in a very tough spot. Because his camera is not only worth less than new at 40k, but its worth less than new @ 19k. So a barely used 34k body can only sell used for about 15k. That's the problem. For people looking at the equity of equipment as a value asset to make other moves in business, get the shit end of the stick.

For example, lets say in 6 months I wanted to sell my epic package for 30k and put it toward a set of ultra primes..... Well that's gone. Not because the market dictated but because of artificial factors.

This isn't a car. This is tool for many people to make a living. Though I guess to make an omelette some eggs have to get broken.
 
Timur Civan said:
Ok,

Look at it this way. An epic that's 2 months old. Approx 40k with basics.

Yea everything loses value, but an artificial devaluation of the value of a product by manufacturer puts that middle owner in a very tough spot. Because his camera is not only worth less than new at 40k, but its worth less than new @ 19k. So a barely used 34k body can only sell used for about 15k. That's the problem. For people looking at the equity of equipment as a value asset to make other moves in business, get the shit end of the stick.

For example, lets say in 6 months I wanted to sell my epic package for 30k and put it toward a set of ultra primes..... Well that's gone. Not because the market dictated but because of artificial factors.

This isn't a car. This is tool for many people to make a living. Though I guess to make an omelette some eggs have to get broken.
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Good point & well put.

This is really the way a lot are feeling, but, it's out of our hands so we move on.

I still love my Epic and what it does... and what I can do with it - all of which hasn't changed.

But, the landscape has altered and I think we both agree about what's happened & it's effect.
 
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