Feel robbed

[Mitch Gross]

Hey Mitch,

Very sound advice. I have learned the hard way how true this is and only blame my self.

How are you fairing through the weather over there? everything going ok?

Best,

Hi Yaque,

I've been very lucky. I live in uptown Manhattan and never lost power or water, although the lights flickered quite a bit. I feel very bad for my friends downtown and in other areas of the region who have been truly devastated. AbelCine NY has been without power for the week so we've all been working from home as we can, but we expect to be up and running again on Monday morning.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Perhaps thats the future... diversification...

That's my take on it as well. Smart diversification of skill sets, and the ability to collaborate with the right people on the right projects... possibly, the new approach for success.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Consider this:

When you buy a brand new car at the dealership the car is often worth 30-45% less the minute you drive it off the lot.

Personally I drive a 20 year old car so I don't feel the effects of this sticker shock, and I happen to like my old ass car.

I'm guessing most people who own these things don't even own them outright - they bought them on Credit of some sort - whether a Loan or a Lease, or something.

I think Red did you a solid by not dropping the prices more, as I'm sure they had the power to do that.

These new prices are very balanced, and if you just bought the camera last week, or even last month - then you were not paying attention to the market you were entering. Either that or you felt you had clients who are willing to pay for such things, and if you have the clients - they don't know or care whether you had a $39,000 dollar body or a $19,000 dollar body.

For those in Stage 2 or 3 - you have to be freaking kidding me if you are complaining. That's just my opinion. You got treated like royalty by being given this trade in option.

Keep your ear to the railroad tracks and look at what's coming. Pay Attention to the world around you.

First World Problems man, First World Problems.

Two years ago it was all the film dudes complaining about "These New Red Guys", now it's the "New Money" complaining about "new New Money"

In Los Angeles - the rental market is already fucked because everyone will give you a _fucking package_ for $250/day.

The part that gets me is that there are producers who complain about THOSE PRICES.

Only one solution: Get better clients, or get a new line of work.

It's already too crowded here in LA, but I don't blame the camera manufacturers.

I'm hoping in the near future I can live in the Pacific Northwest. The wife is already convinced...I just gotta grow the balls to do it for real.

I was paying attention - a company dropping the official price of a pro camera has never happened before - it decimates resale value, and decimates rentals even worse than before - even with "good" clients, which we are fortunate enough to have.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Everyone should stop and realize something. In a few years time the EPIC will be a doorstop. So will the Sony F55, the Phantom Flex and anything else that's out there now. I know RED says "Obsolescence Obsolete" but that really means there is a trade-in/trade-up program to keep you moving forward.

I remember when Paramount closed its camera department and sold off all the old Mitchell cameras to Visual Products. It wasn't that long ago. By building replacement parts in their own machine shop they were able to keep those beasts running for 60+ years shooting sitcoms. Then came the F900 and those days were done. And they are never coming back.

RED is free todo what it wants to stay competitive or otherwise feels is proper business practice. You have to take care of yourself. Don't buy gear unless you know you can generate the work to pay it off. If it drops in value then it might take you a little longer, but you still know you can pay it off. If you don't know that you can do it with reasonable certainty, then don't buy the gear. That simple.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I was paying attention - a company dropping the official price of a pro camera has never happened before.

Sorry, but bull. Of course it has. Cutting it nearly in half, perhaps not, but I've seen prices slashed by Sony, Panasonic and others when it needed to be. Do people remember the deal Panasonic did a few years ago when they said you could bring in any old beater of a camera and they would take it on trade-in towards your purchase of a $60K HPX3000 to the tune of $30K? It was a fancy way of saying that they were cutting the price of the camera in half.

Hey, we're in the rental business too and I'm sure as the dust settles this will eventually effect the rental rates, so I don't exactly have a reason to smile about it. But it's just a shrug and move on kind of thing. That's business.

 

[Emanuel A.]

The point is that these rentals are often expensive and if you'll be renting for some period, you pay the camera you can own with zero cost at a certain point of the road. The sweet spot is to realize this value added. Let's have some basics on how the economy works? ;-) For some reason, someone invented a tax on the purchase price, known in a lot of countries with same name, to those who had never noticed.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hey Jeff,

I want to prove your theory wrong. Let Jim Jannard give me the first two Dragon sensor EPICs manufactured (and all the cool accessoriest first) and i'll document how it has affected my business growth. I have no talent whatsoever and this theory will be based on the fact that owning the equipment first... when it's most valuable and in demand is what's most important.

To have a few variables... don't let Ketch Rossi for example get the Dragon sensor and we'll see who gets the most work and makes the most money. Let the study have a one year duration. What do you guys say?

That is a valid point, Andre. It doesn't really impact my point, or at least I don't think it does. I was speaking from the perspective of a generalized market. Only a few can jump on the early ownership advantage and be first in their respective markets. There is indeed a huge advantage to that. I know that full well myself -- Meryem Ersoz and Myself took delivery of the first two EPIC-M cameras in Colorado on about the same day. My phone was ringing off the hook for about the next 40 days. Mostly curious looky-loos wanting to get their hands on it. And I turned the majority of them down. I'll rent to people I know, trust and occasionally work with. The vast majority of my clients don't know the first thing about cameras or what I have. On the other hand, I was also one of the first few RED Ones in this market and I'm pretty sure I was the second guy in town that had one available to rent. For a long time I had the most extensive RED One setup along with a ton of other lighting and grip equipment to go along with it. I was a lot busier with rentals then. Had one camera as my rental unit, the other as the one I used myself.

Anyway, being first does indeed have its advantages. But those advantages are mostly temporary and I think people do best in that situation by NOT gouging the customers and over-charging due to high demand. It's an opportunity to forge new relationships and add to your base of regular clients. The short-term gains afforded by high rental rates in this position are usually insignificant compared to a lasting and trusting relationship that can be built instead. That's my experience.

As for Ketch, yes it's true he's been first for some things. Mostly he's just been early. I've got my hands on some of RED's goodies before Ketch has. Then there's Mark L. Pederson / OffHollywood. He's always been number 1 outside of RED. Ketch is a great guy and while he is early on the list, even first for some things, I think most of his success (or at least what we see of it) is more due to his feverish and relentless perseverance. The guy is an animal and he has had a generous splash of misfortune and bad luck both in business and personally over the past few years. He's a super nice guy and easy to like and so outgoing and honest. He makes new friends and business relationships almost too fast for his own good. So yeah, I love Ketch.

That's my take on it as well. Smart diversification of skill sets, and the ability to collaborate with the right people on the right projects... possibly, the new approach for success.

Hardly a new concept for the future... A very diversified approach has worked for me very well my entire life. Jack of all trades, master of a few.

Everyone should stop and realize something. In a few years time the EPIC will be a doorstop. So will the Sony F55, the Phantom Flex and anything else that's out there now. I know RED says "Obsolescence Obsolete" but that really means there is a trade-in/trade-up program to keep you moving forward.

So true. And the rate at which these cameras will become doorstops, boat anchors, paperweights, etc.. will be faster and faster with each iteration. Eventually the other manufacturers will have to adopt some form of upgrade and trade-in program as RED has implemented. There is just no other way to keep the sanity with the development cycles looming over this industry. I ultimately see the possibility where modularity will extend to components inside the camera brain itself. Similar to building a PC, we may be able to build cameras -- pick the sensor, pick the number of processors, amount of memory, various types of image processors, etc..

It's going to be interesting to see who is willing and able to play this game.

 

[Valentin Paris]

Please, don't talk about cars !
When you buy cars, you know that it is always a bad invest.

technology evolving ?

Right.

What about the Alexa ...mmmm....

2K and 89,025.00 USD

Absolutely technically obsolete !

Red Epic, 5K, unbeatable for the resolution, and 19000 USD...

So, now, rethink all your "technology evolving". They are NOT decisive arguments.

If you can compare a RED EPIC to a Arri Alexa, tell me what about the 70000 USD difference ?

 

[Elsie N]

Don't forget Gibby. Anyone wanting a role model for making ownership of a RED camera profitable... Gibby.

 

[Chris Lowe]

I was paying attention - a company dropping the official price of a pro camera has never happened before - it decimates resale value, and decimates rentals even worse than before - even with "good" clients, which we are fortunate enough to have.

So when a company all of a sudden introduces a completely new camera model to their line up, making the previous camera not nearly as desirable for renters/owners, what does that do for rental/resale value?

 

[George Hupka]

Mitch is so right. I've bought a lot of cameras over the years, and it's never been scarier... If I lived in a major market there's no way I would be a camera owner today. Living in a smaller city, I do find that I can make a go of it by owning and renting equipment - but that is very market-specific and you can't generalize, you have to know your city.

It seems to me that those of us who were used to spending $100,000+ on a camera body (long before Red) had no choice but to know our business model - which camera model to buy, when to buy it, what the market would bear for rates, etc. 6 years ago I bought an F900R for $110,000 - only after a producer I had a long-standing relationship with signed a contract for a job that required 50 shooting days. So I knew that within the first few months, I'd already have a substantial piece of that camera paid for. Today I can pick one up used for $25,000 - but my day rate hasn't dropped anywhere near that much. Why? The cost of the camera body is only one piece of my day rate - when you add all the accessories (Lenses, heads, monitors etc.) and especially when you don't undervalue your skill and experience (here I'm talking owner/operator rates rather than just rental)

With Epic, as a Stage 2 owner I'm not too freaked out, because the new prices bring the Epic cost down to about what I paid last year, and the Epic brain paid for itself in rentals in less than 3 months so I can't complain. I can sympathize with people who just bought an Epic and could have saved a lot if they had waited... but there's a reason I waited to get my Stage 2 Epic instead of jumping in and buying an Epic-M. I just couldn't justify the additional cost of an M, because I had no projects that absolutely needed it, and my Red One MX was still working regularly - so I waited patiently for my Stage 2 number to come up, which was definitely the right financial move. So while I can sympathize, I would also suggest that if you had a sustainable business plan for buying an Epic 2 or 3 months ago, this pricing change really shouldn't be disastrous. Anyone buying an HD or digital cine camera today has to know it will lose half its value in the first year - that's been the "going rate" for some time now, and thinking that Red was somehow going to be immune from this forever is wishful thinking.

Now, here's one criticism I will make. It seems to me that Red could have cut the price a little less, and used the extra revenue to put some more resources into development. They're slashing Epic prices, but there are still many features of this camera system that remain "unfinished" - just noticed a thread on timelapse here, and pre-record - a lot of these were features that were enabled on Red One even in very early builds, and it makes no sense that we're still waiting for them to be implemented in Epic. (Lots more examples but those are fresh in my brain as I just noticed a couple of threads discussing them...)

Hand in hand with this, is the fact that other manufacturers - notably Arri and Sony - are really stepping up their game, listening to users and improving their products to address user needs. I'm not saying that Red doesn't do this, but it's a lot more competitive out there today than when Epic was launched, and price is not the only factor.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Hardly a new concept for the future... A very diversified approach has worked for me very well my entire life. Jack of all trades, master of a few.

I've got the 'Jack of all trades' down. Working on becoming a master of a few. Currently, its safe to say I fit the cliche "master of none"

 

[Mark Pugh]

Good camera investment:
A GoPro.

 

[Valentin Paris]

So when a company all of a sudden introduces a completely new camera model to their line up, making the previous camera not nearly as desirable for renters/owners, what does that do for rental/resale value?

It is completely DIFFERENT !

when a company as sony is making a new camera, it is because the one before was obsolete !

The Red EPIC is not obsolet at all, even with the new sony cameras F5/F55, so why they did that ?

We talk about brand image.

I am a leica kind of guy, we never seen Leica made 45% off the price of the M9, because it is UNIQUE as the Red Epic, and they want keep their brand image.

Red made a price drop of 45%, what they made is just a big damage to their brand image.

 

[Chris Lowe]

It is completely DIFFERENT !

when a company as sony are making a completely new camera it is because the one before was obsolete !

The Red EPIC is not obsolet at all, even with the new sony cameras F5/F55, so why they did that ?

We talk about brand image.

I am a leica kind of guy, we never see Leica put a 45% off the price of the M9, because it is UNIQUE as the Red Epic, and they want keep their brand image.

Red made a price drop of 45%, what they made is just a big damage to their brand image.

Exactly my point, the fact that the epic is not obsolete as the market shifts is exactly why it was a good investment in terms of cameras. Because if RED were another company, Dragon would not be only 6k to upgrade. It would be a whole different camera that would render the epic obsolete and thus make its price far worse at that point. But because that's not the case and that it is upgradable, the epic will hold it's value (even the new diminished value) far longer than had it been made by another company.

 

[Valentin Paris]

Exactly my point, the fact that the epic is not obsolete as the market shifts is exactly why it was a good investment in terms of cameras. Because if RED were another company, Dragon would not be only 6k to upgrade. It would be a whole different camera that would render the epic obsolete and thus make its price far worse at that point. But because that's not the case and that it is upgradable, the epic will hold it's value (even the new diminished value) far longer than had it been made by another company.

It is SO GOOD to be finally understood by someone.

JUST A BIG THANK to you Chris !

 

[Chris Lowe]

It is SO GOOD to be finally understood by someone.

JUST A BIG THANK to you Chris !

Hey, i'm just trying to offer some perspective, sorry if you took offense to it

 

[Cliff Hokanson]

WOW Everything Ive bought have made more that 15 x's there money back in 3 years. (excepted a one remote head that shit the Bed)
My Hot Gears remote head made me more than $800K I LOVE my Epic's!!!!!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

technology evolving ?

Right.

What about the Alexa ...mmmm....

2K and 89,025.00 USD

Absolutely technically obsolete !

Red Epic, 5K, unbeatable for the resolution, and 19000 USD...

So, now, rethink all your "technology evolving". They are NOT decisive arguments.

If you can compare a RED EPIC to a Arri Alexa, tell me what about the 70000 USD difference ?

I actually want to know why the Alexa costs so much in contrast to what it does. Just because something is more expensive or its maker holds its price steady for a longer time, does not mean that product is better. We have become too accustomed to the camera industry being static with little progress and innovation at the high end. Prices fixed and static along with the technology. That is not the case now.


So what happens now if Sony and RED get into a camera "arms race"? Look what happened to CPUs in the late '90s between Intel and AMD. Moore's Law wasn't just exceeded, it was kicked to the curb and trampled. At one point Intel even publicly denounced it on their web site. Of course, they have re-written "Moore's Law" three or four times over the years to fit their marketing and most people think it's some kind of universal constant and don't realize it was a business strategy and in many ways still is today.

Sorry to go off on that tangent, but I bring up Moore's Law because Jim has referenced it repeatedly over the past couple years talking about EPIC and future developments. In other words, if you are paying attention, this won't surprise you. It means we should hold on to our hats because RED is going to push hard and keep pushing forward, regardless of what the other guys are doing. RED is going to keep upgrading EPIC and releasing new products. They will keep dropping prices as they can to offer the most powerful hardware to their customers at the lowest reasonable prices. They are not going to uphold artificial pricing structures like the other guys do. If they change suppliers and streamline their production, allowing them to drop a significant percentage off the manufacturing cost of the cameras, they are going to transfer that to their customers in some way.

This price drop has been looming for a while, as far as I can tell. It would have happened regardless of whether Sony announced the F5 and F55 or not. I think the timing of Sony's announcement played right into RED's hands though. It gave them a perfect excuse to do the price reduction now instead of at some other possible time -- like the first of the new year or whatever. The forums are buzzing here and on other sites and trade rags that discuss cameras. Sony's thunder was successfully muted a bit. The Sony cameras are going to be huge though, they will sell a lot of them. And Sony has yet to drop their major bomb -- probably at NAB they will announce their UltraHD 2/3" broadcast camera.

No matter how you look at it, all the current digital cameras, and any digital camera for that matter, is nothing more than a computer with an image sensor attached to it and dedicated internal software to capture, process and output or record what that sensor "sees". Computer technology evolves, it continues to get better and cheaper. IIRC, I believe the ASICs in EPIC are a 32nm process. The silicon industry is mostly transitioning to processes in the range of 20 to 22 nm. You can bet RED will follow suit and cram more ASICs into the same space, more processing power, larger and higher density sensors, and this stuff continues to get cheaper to manufacture.

Other camera companies that don't follow suit will be fine for the near term. In the long term, they won't survive. I think RED, Sony and Canon are going to lead the way. I'm willing to bet that ARRI exits the camera business within the next 10 years and sticks to making lights and accessories. That prediction is somewhat dire, but unless they pick up the pace and examine their business model they're going to be left in the dust or crushed in the wake of others moving through.

This fast pace is RED's best chance as the underdog in this industry too. If they stop moving, the big guys like Sony would trample them. They need to keep running as fast as they can without looking back. With the right products, they could just win the race. In another 5 or 6 years, cameras the size of GoPros will be shooting UltraHD/4K at 60Hz with near lossless compression and no rolling shutter / jell-o skew and they will cost less than they do now. I'm willing to bet that by the time the 10th generation iPhone arrives, it will be shooting UltraHD as well. On Apple's current schedule, that's about 7 years out. We have already gone from 360p to 720p to 1080p in a little under that time with the iPhone. Just sayin'

 

[James T Mather]

Red made a price drop of 45%, what they made is just a big damage to their brand image.

Agreed. In six months the cameras will be utterly worthless as will the rental market. People are already giving Red Ones away. Nice move.

Red=the TJ Maxx camera company.