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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Feature request - PROXIES - the Holly Grail

Feature request - PROXIES - the Holly Grail

  • Total voters
    16
Jason Wingrove said:
and why.. does it have to be a NEW proprietary media system requiring expensive new SSD's and proprietary media reader?
SxS, CF, SD, QXD, etc? all no good?
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Agree, most of us invested in cards and card readers all ready. Most of us probably do have some of the "not biggest" size cards. Maybe even wait to buy some of the red collared faster RED SSD when they come for the dragon. Then our old 128Gb and 64Gb and so on would be perfect for proxy recordings when we in the future buy our bigger/faster cards. Now having to get smaller cards and a new card reader is something I will not buy into. It's simply against my reasoning.

Instead we got a bolt with 2 receivers and I will get a pix 240i and strap one of the receivers to it. This way we have off camera realtime proxy recording. Something I find nicer than strapping it all to the back of the camera. My thinking is that if it's wireless then all other stuff can happen some place else. And we pretty much never shoot something that both need proxies and does not a go with the whole video village thing. If I shoot something with the camera all by myself for example than I do not need any proxies. I only see the need for proxies when doing multi layered editing on set.

To me if the meizler would be done right the proxy recorder should have used standard SSD cards and I think it also should have been made in a way so it could be located on both sides of the video transmission. in other words, if wanted, the recorder could then be seated over by the receiver antenna in the video bay. That would be a bit more along the module way of thinking and thats how I intend to set up the bolt/pix240.

Now we only rented the pi before and I really like it with the auto record and such. Does anyone know if that function is kicking evne when running wireless HD?

Tomorrow we shoot and will use the bolt with our blackmagic SDI-Thunderbolt thing, getting proxy files straight into a mac from wireless, just so we can rough edit with clip info in picture while we shoot. Looking forward to see how that will work out.
 
Jason Wingrove said:
and why.. does it have to be a NEW proprietary media system requiring expensive new SSD's and proprietary media reader?
Click to expand...
Deep down you know the answer.
 
Petri Teittinen said:
Deep down you know the answer.
Click to expand...

And the answer might not be what many are thinking...

RED has a simple strategy - the cameras we use are exactly the same as cameras used on the most expensive blockbusters...
The benefits are obvious. Please don't tell me you have never mentioned this to your potential (and existing) clients.
It also eliminates what used to separate us from the A-class DP's - access to state-of-the-art equipment.
Now the only thing that separates the cream from the crop is the talent and experience (I know some actually feel this to be a burden)
The down-side (again relative POV) is that RED has to make everything to be as bulletproof and foolproof as possible.
This includes robust and reliable media. I am yet to hear that anyone lost footage because of the media's fault (not human error).
They could have stuck to the normal sized REDMAGs, but that would make the module unnecessary that much larger...

Another POV is that it prevents from mistaking a MAG with RAW data from a MAG with PROXIES... ;o)

:sifone: Peter
 
Jason Wingrove said:
Not sure what that all means.
SO SxS & CF etc arent pro media? CF was good for 4K on red one but not pro enough now?
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The CF on the RED ONE was never the primary (nor the "only") recording media on the RED ONE and have (had) some major drawbacks.
Aside of their capacity and speed - many (including myself) had problems with bent pins in both the camera slot and the readers. So no, CF is not pro enough...
SxS is as proprietary as is the REDMAG, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. Are you seriously suggesting that RED should have considered other companies' proprietary media?

Jason Wingrove said:
why couldnt the proxies go on the main SSD's? like they used to
j
Click to expand...

Yes, they could have. But I can see right of the top of my head two practical issues...:
1 - the modules (so far Meizler and the PROXY) would needed to be much larger (counterproductive for RED psychology)
2 - it would be less then 24 hrs after release when peeps would bombard RED with requests for cheaper, lower-speed REDMAGs good just enough for PROXY recording, as the normal MAGs would seem too good and too expensive for this. That would consequently lead to issues where peeps would inevitably (on purpose, or by accident) mistake which is which and wonder why the camera is not recording RAW...

:sifone: Peter
 
I'm not quite sure why there needs to be additional cabling going on here. Wasn't the whole point of a modular system to eliminate that part and just stack modules together? Not trying to bash here, just confused. This requires you to run a cable to the SDI port, the +1 module taps into the HDMI, battery plates still tap into the DC power port, and as far as I know the Meizler Module taps into all the ports on the cam to work. What the heck all all the pins on the modules for? Just curious.
 
Jarek Zabczynski said:
I'm not quite sure why there needs to be additional cabling going on here. Wasn't the whole point of a modular system to eliminate that part and just stack modules together? Not trying to bash here, just confused. This requires you to run a cable to the SDI port, the +1 module taps into the HDMI, battery plates still tap into the DC power port, and as far as I know the Meizler Module taps into all the ports on the cam to work. What the heck all all the pins on the modules for? Just curious.
Click to expand...

The pins on the modules can transfer only so much data. They are certainly capable to pass the RAW signal from the sensor, but adding an RGB converted video in a uncompressed form (which would be required for further compressing to other codecs) is simply too much to ask - even at HD resolutions. This is why the Meizler is so huge (and expensive) - it includes another ASIC that deals with the RAW signal from the sensor. In order to make the PROXY MODULE as small and as affordable as possible - they opted to just take in the uncompressed video path from the BNC and "just" perform the compression to the specific codec without having to debayer the RAW data...

:sifone: Peter
 
Just taking this threat back to Peter's initial comment.
Agreed, RED please allow a playback recording function for the Proxy Module to deal with off speed clips. I own a RR and sometimes my jobs don's have the turnaround for me to process the footage overnight. Post wants the footage that day. I need both solutions. A reliable proxy module that can handle off speed clips for fast turnaround jobs, whilst maintaining the file maning structure, and a Red Rocket setup that allows me to one-light and transcode files for my other jobs. I currently have a Proxy Module deposit down and if it can't handle off speed clips I will certainly purchase a third party device that can, like the Atomos Blade, and save about $2500 in the process.
 
I wish I could control the one-light on every job I shoot and use my Red Rocket, but unfortunately sometimes the choice it to offer direct to edit deliverables at the end of the job or shoot with another camera.
 
Joseph Victorine said:
Just taking this threat back to Peter's initial comment.
Agreed, RED please allow a playback recording function for the Proxy Module to deal with off speed clips. I own a RR and sometimes my jobs don's have the turnaround for me to process the footage overnight. Post wants the footage that day. I need both solutions. A reliable proxy module that can handle off speed clips for fast turnaround jobs, whilst maintaining the file maning structure, and a Red Rocket setup that allows me to one-light and transcode files for my other jobs. I currently have a Proxy Module deposit down and if it can't handle off speed clips I will certainly purchase a third party device that can, like the Atomos Blade, and save about $2500 in the process.
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The RED proxy recorder can't record high speed and neither can the Blade or other recorders. Besides the SDI and HDMI ports can only export up to 60P anyway.
 
For a company as transparent as RED, maybe they should think about double-checking with the community they're trying to sell to before going to the lengths of developing it... especially when they botch something that should be fairly straightforward (like the proxy module). You look at what Toia mocked up (what seems like) years ago -- a module that uses regular sized REDmags (which are already fairly hefty in price but can at least be used for regular recording) and gets its feed from the rear pins, rather than from a monitor output -- and it just made sense. That way it could make 4k prores at 150fps (or whatever combination) which isn't possible through SDI/HDMI recording. Would it require debayer hardware, be bigger, and more expensive? Yes, but at least it'd fill the niche.

Instead, as-is the RED proxy module is just a really expensive (but not necessarily better) alternative to a Samurai or Blade that requires even more proprietary/expensive media that can't be used elsewhere. The Pix is in a different league altogether since it has built-in XLRs (which, when you think about it, means it could almost compete with both the Proxy Module and ProIO for a fraction of the price when you factor in media).

If they'd started a thread saying, "This would be our proxy implementation (and this is why). What do you think?" I'm willing to bet a lot of the potential buyers that were begging for the module would tell them not to bother... Especially if they said it'd be as much as a Pix (which, again, comes with dual XLRs and uses cheap media). I could be completely wrong, and this thing may fly off the shelves... BUT if it's DOA, RED would have avoided a lot of trouble for themselves by just asking the community first.
 
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I think you just answered your own question Mike. For a module to work off the pins, it would require it to do a debayer, and suck up more power and be a more expensive and much bigger. Well, now we're talking about the Meizler Module. Even that can't record high speed though. In any case, working off the R3Ds should be what the clients should be working off... one day soon I hope....
 
Bob Gundu said:
I think you just answered your own question Mike. For a module to work off the pins, it would require it to do a debayer, and suck up more power and be a more expensive and much bigger. Well, now we're talking about the Meizler Module. Even that can't record high speed though. In any case, working off the R3Ds should be what the clients should be working off... one day soon I hope....
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Touche. Although, have the proxy specs of Meizler been stated/confirmed? I kind of thought it was connected to a lot of those ports on the back and was under the impression that what we knew of the MM has changed massively.

Conversely, if the Proxy Module had XLRs and was basically an inline "PIX" module that fits flush with the camera, I'd be a lot less critical (and may have even put up with the proprietary non-standard mini-mags)... Or if it was half the price. But there are just too many "huh, wha?" design decisions for me to overlook when they're asking top-dollar (compared to the module's competitors). I was pumped for this module until I saw it; I don't know how else to say it.
 
It is all about perspective...

Some companies (no need to throw names around) charge arm and length for their cameras and then charge you even more for unlocking features that the camera was able to do in the first place...

RED cameras as an absolute bargain and by far the best value proposal in our industry. You can buy the same camera that is used on some of the largest blockbusters for a fraction of the cost of the inferior competing products. And RED not only releases all SW updates for free, but it also has an unheard-of trade-in program for HW upgrades. Nobody does that. Period...

And then there is the RED accessories. Some say they are grossly overpriced. Some see the value in the top notch quality, robustness and modularity. But what many do not realize - RED does not force you to buy their accessories. RED is compatible with pretty much every cine accessory our there - even those made by RED's competitors. I, for one, chose to buy RED accessories as a sign of my loyalty, gratitude and support. I know I can buy many similar / alternative accessories cheaper elsewhere. But I chose to buy RED whenever possible. I know they make nice profit on these. I sure hope they do! So they can stay in business and continue to push the status quo and provide us with these amazing cameras at these even more amazing prices...

You all are free to chose what accessory you want. Nobody is forcing you to go RED...

:sifone: Peter
 
Bob Gundu said:
The RED proxy recorder can't record high speed and neither can the Blade or other recorders. Besides the SDI and HDMI ports can only export up to 60P anyway.
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Hey Bob, I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm well aware of the limitations of off speed recording with the Proxy Module and as well as third part recorders. I was referring to an option that would allow proxy recording from the Epic or Scarlet playback output. Many folks currently generate off speed proxies this way.
 
don't hold your breath if you are waiting for red to make it easier for you to shoot 1080. that is a bad word there...and according to their doctrine...every frame must have a full de-bayer transcode from native 4 or 5K regardless of your broadcast format.
 
Mike Kushner said:
don't hold your breath if you are waiting for red to make it easier for you to shoot 1080. that is a bad word there...and according to their doctrine...every frame must have a full de-bayer transcode from native 4 or 5K regardless of your broadcast format.
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There is a reason why it is called a proxy module. On a recent job for a US client here in Japan the agency insisted on the use of DSLR. I have even offered to shoot it on my Scarlet at the same price, as I did not wanna have to deal with the shooting-video-on-DSLR-nightmare, but the client insisted on using the DSLR anyway. They wanted the simple files and simple workflow. We ended up facing major issues on the shoot and both the client and the producer agreed we would have been better of shooting it on the RED and using one of the many QT-HD capture devices, such as the PIX, or Ninja...

:sifone: Peter
 
using a pix or ninja is pretty useless if you have much over cranked recording.
 
Mike Kushner said:
using a pix or ninja is pretty useless if you have much over cranked recording.
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You could use them in the same way I am proposing to use this module - capture the proxies when playing back at project's frame rate. The main advantage of doing this on the RED PROXY module is that this module will be powered from the brain (no need for more power solutions) and its control can be integrated into the UI of the camera...

Having said that - many people have a valid concern about using the camera for playback (it was compared to using the old HDV/DV cameras to capture their footage). For many smaller productions and one-man-shows this is not a major issue and the larger productions can simply choose not to use it this way - the beauty of having options...

But after thinking about this more I have realized that there is an easy solution. Instead of using expensive DSMC camera to play back the footage for capture on the PROXY MODULE - with the REDRAY now shipping we could use the very affordable player to perform this function. All that will be needed is some kind of docking station for the PROXY MODULE to be powered and provide a direct control via the UI of the REDRAY. This would solve most of the concerns some peeps are having...

:sifone: Peter
 
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