Fan Noise

[Rob Castiglione]

I typically use a longer lens for interviews (a short telephoto will do) and the Sanken CSe -3 which has pretty amazing off axis rejection. I have never had a problem with fan noise.

 

[Robert Cook]

FYI, we had a fan go bad and it generated a very high pitched sound (sounded like a bad bearing) even at low settings (36-25%). It was hard to hear but is was pronounced. When I turned the camera on it just sounded different (almost like the RED BRICK charger). I knew something was not right. We tested our camera with the the bad fan next to our friends EPIC and it was a total night and day difference.

RED sent me a new fan.:yesnod: all is well.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

This camera is the best tool I've used in the digital world.
I rarely had trouble with overheating but working on a set, over here in Europe on a normal interior scene, pushes you to slow the fan to 25%. This gives you about a 7 min. time frame to capture your shot (at 25C room temp).
In our standards, rehearsal also have to be made with the fan @ 25%. This gives little time for the camera to cool down to 35/50 C. Pushing the fan above 80% during cool down is not acceptable. The DP will be annoyed by the noise and the sound crew gets nasty with the poor AC. ;-)

A lot of people can get around that hickup and there are not all shots that are made in a bathroom @ 1m from the talent. But it happens.

I've shot numerous shorts/feature with the Epic and could make it work.

But there are times, where the Epic needs some help to cool down or it's a no go. Sound crew is not prone to compromise ("Hey! shoot with a lavalier mic!" type of comment). And I understand their point of view.

Now if you'r ok to change your framing and put that 85mm, it's up to you. ;-)

Pat

 

[Stewart Read]

All good thoughts, thanks again.

 

[Stewart Read]

How long does the camera take to cool down - I guess I mean how long does full hair dryer mode last ?

 

[Scott Crawley]

How long does the camera take to cool down - I guess I mean how long does full hair dryer mode last ?

That would depend entirely upon the ambient temperature, presuming you jacked up your fan and it was working properly.

 

[Paul Hudson]

I just shoot some loooooooong interviews this week. I set the fan to 35% and keep my eye on the temp. Only once did the fan kick in high and we shot all day.

 

[Marc Wielage]

If fan noise were to cause you to consider using a closer micing technique and putting a longer lens on to move the camera back a few feet then your interviews et al. can only benefit. Your subjects will be more comfortable because they will not have a camera up their nose and may give you better material. They will look better, sound better and be more relaxed. It's a win/win scenario. ;-) embrace it.

It's not embraceable if you're in a tight location and have an intimate dialogue scene with a specific lens choice. Closer micing technique only works when you have the room to do so, and even then, a microphone merely mirrors the reality of the location. Hard walls and hard floors only emphasize things like fan noise more.

What concerns me is if the resolution of the camera goes up, like with the Dragon upgrade, will the fan noise also go up? I already know of crews struggling with 3D camera rigs where the noise issue is twice is bad. Mic placement, careful editing, and noise reduction can only do so much.

 

[Scott Crawley]

It's not embraceable if you're in a tight location and have an intimate dialogue scene with a specific lens choice. Closer micing technique only works when you have the room to do so, and even then, a microphone merely mirrors the reality of the location. Hard walls and hard floors only emphasize things like fan noise more.

What concerns me is if the resolution of the camera goes up, like with the Dragon upgrade, will the fan noise also go up? I already know of crews struggling with 3D camera rigs where the noise issue is twice is bad. Mic placement, careful editing, and noise reduction can only do so much.

I hear you, I've been there but choose not to return if at all possible. ;-) If you choose to shoot in a shoebox, that is up to you and your team as is your method of dealing with it, and there are many compromises to be made. I think folks expect that. There are of course times when another tool is better suited for the job.

Generally speaking though... in most cases a step back and a closer mic is not only possible but preferable. I would be willing to bet that 98% of folks who are asking "Why doesn't my stuff look cinematic?" are habitually shooting their close ups on 35mm or less. My remarks are directed mostly at those people.

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Marc you are right that in a confined space the fan could certainly cause an issue recording clean sound. I guess the design of the camera is a compromise.

 

[Scott Brown]

Fan noise IS an issue, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. These are hot and noisy cameras designed for quality of visuals rather than quality of sound.

To be honest, we have stopped using our Epic for shooting interviews where the value of 4K is less as the content generally has a short shelf life. We now use a Canon C300 for shooting our interviews and it is a lot more user friendly and means we don't have to keep apologising to our clients for the noise!! I've given up on RED properly addressing the fan noise issue, I just have to hope with the next sensor release that they get this fixed - I suspect however that Dragon will run even hotter and be even more difficult to silence.

Epic does however shoot the most stunningly beautiful footage though :yesnod:

Scott

 

[Ruff]

Currently shooting a doco on an awful fs700... because of the fan noise and the lack of audio control.

Which sucks.

But we have decided to keep the Reds for TVC's and have just ordered one of the new Sony's for doco.

Fan noise, audio control, HD deliverables only were the reasons why.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

...I just have to hope with the next sensor release that they get this fixed - I suspect however that Dragon will run even hotter and be even more difficult to silence.

What causes heat is not (only) the size of the sensor or xK numbers. It's the processing going on on the back ground to compress the footage to R3D in realtime (wich is a miracle...). No other manufacturer has this going on in the back ground and ususally have less needs for cooling going on. The pitty is that the core temp also heats up the sensor as they are linked to the same cooling channel.

To adress the Epic/Scarlet fan noise issue you have to know and figure out your fan speed, choosing from various factors:

Room temp
Acoustic noise of the set (no need for 25% if it's outside or a noisy room)
Lenght of the take
Is it possible to cool the camera during takes to an acceptable starting level?
Max heating allowed by the DP for the sensor and core (black shading control/protecting your camera hardware).
Is the crew (AC/sound dpt) ready to find solutions for the issue?

If the crew starts with a bad attitude in regard of the camera choice, you know it will be difficult to find solutions.

But its unacceptable to change the framing or the sound quality due to a camera choice.

In my point of view as a DP, it's the work of my AC to check and handle the heat of the camera (using the FanPlate for example). Your AC can allways change the camera fanspeed during take (lowering it or speeding it up). There are some AC that aren't very "fan" of doing this job... no comment.

Now I'm sure, a new camera design only 20% bigger with a better fan/cooling path/heatsink could solve all heating problems.

I shoot doco work on the Epic and I'm really happy with the results. I've never had sound issue (finger crossing) and the flexibility in post is incredible. I must tell, I'm not in a post-production tight scedule so I can afford R3D post-production.

Patrick

 

[Scott Crawley]

Marc you are right that in a confined space the fan could certainly cause an issue recording clean sound. I guess the design of the camera is a compromise.

What if you chose to put a beautiful, talented and experienced actress in Marc's little room scenario, put the camera right in front of her and she told you "You had better get that thing out of my face." It's not that she doesn't like the camera, it is because she knows if she allows you to shoot her that way she is going to look like shit. Would you then say that using the actress in your film is a compromise? I don't think there is a simple answer to that question, much like managing fan noise can complicate your choices... and they are choices. If you feel you have to choose a mic technique over image quality that is your choice to make.

It is only a compromise if you are trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

 

[Shane Kelly]

It is only a compromise if you are trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

So wanting a camera that doesn't sound like a hair dryer is forcing a square peg into a round hole? The design of the camera clearly has compromises. No camera manufacturer would choose to make a camera that sounds like this unless they had to. I don't really fault red for doing this as I have a tiny camera that provides outstanding images.The fan noise, especially when not rolling, can be a problem, so when I need to I use a different camera or a longer lens - both compromises.
I have shot interviews on my epic but to tell you the truth my redone does a better job, sound wise , in an interview situation. Luckily, most of my work is commercials so fan noise is not a major issue but for many people it is and red has never addressed this and probably will not address it. I expect that 3rd party manufacturers will step up to the plate once again and provide a solution.

 

[Scott Crawley]

So wanting a camera that doesn't sound like a hair dryer is forcing a square peg into a round hole?

No forcing a crew that is not capable of managing the fan noise of an Epic (Not necessarily a reflection on the crew) to use an Epic in the aforementioned scenario is forcing a round peg into a square hole.

The design of the camera clearly has compromises. No camera manufacturer would choose to make a camera that sounds like this unless they had to. I don't really fault red for doing this as I have a tiny camera that provides outstanding images.The fan noise, especially when not rolling, can be a problem, so when I need to I use a different camera or a longer lens - both compromises.
I have shot interviews on my epic but to tell you the truth my redone does a better job, sound wise , in an interview situation.

It is a balancing act of features and priorities. Where you see compromises I see choices, and as I mentioned previously I don't often see the implementation of a longer lens on a CU as a compromise. Red is clearly capable of designing a larger, quieter camera as the Red One illustrates, but in this case they made other choices.

BTW, choosing Red One over Epic for your interview sounds like a great choice potentially without compromise! What did you feel was a sacrifice, and how much of an impact do you think it had on your project in the end? Much?

I expect that 3rd party manufacturers will step up to the plate once again and provide a solution.

I bet you are right. That would be great.

As a side note: I don't always appear to be such an optimist. I'm trying to be better. For me, Red makes it much easier to be a "glass half full" kind of guy. ;-)

 

[Shane Kelly]

No forcing a crew that is not capable of managing the fan noise of an Epic (Not necessarily a reflection on the crew) to use an Epic in the aforementioned scenario is forcing a round peg into a square hole.

Ah, I understand what you meant now.

 

[Marc Wielage]

What causes heat is not (only) the size of the sensor or xK numbers. It's the processing going on on the back ground to compress the footage to R3D in realtime (wich is a miracle...). No other manufacturer has this going on in the back ground and ususally have less needs for cooling going on. The pitty is that the core temp also heats up the sensor as they are linked to the same cooling channel.

I'll be very curious to see how much fan noise Sony's F5 and F55 have. The F65 is tolerable, though the mechanical shutter adds a lot more noise.

I share the concerns for how much noisier Epic could be with 6K. But there's a lot of very smart people working at Red; I have no doubt they could solve the fan noise problem if they made the effort.

What if you chose to put a beautiful, talented and experienced actress in Marc's little room scenario, put the camera right in front of her and she told you "You had better get that thing out of my face." It's not that she doesn't like the camera, it is because she knows if she allows you to shoot her that way she is going to look like shit.

I don't know too many actresses who have control over blocking, lenses, and camera position. And I have been on shoots about 500 times where the camera was only about six feet away from the actors, which is not that great a distance for a 2 shot or a close up. And trust me, any fan noise is audible under those circumstances in an interior.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't know too many actresses who have control over blocking, lenses, and camera position. And I have been on shoots about 500 times where the camera was only about six feet away from the actors, which is not that great a distance for a 2 shot or a close up. And trust me, any fan noise is audible under those circumstances in an interior.

Yes actresses with that kind of clout are getting rare. The question was: At what point does dealing with their particular needs become a compromise?

Yes if you must shoot your close up on wide glass there will be compromises to make; unglamorous and funny looking acting talent being one of them. If that is what you are after then go for it.

Yes if you stick a fan up someone's nose while recording their dialogue you are going to record the fan too. Resist the urge. Don't be a sadist. See a psychiatrist. Shoot it in such a fashion that the fan needn't run, or move the camera out of the shot. If you can't do that you can always choose another camera. (And a new therapist.) Budget for ADR. If you are going to explore someone's sinus cavity with your lens, you should at least provide enough air conditioning for your talent that the Epic fan doesn't have to go on. Make them comfortable why don't ya? What's that you say, you were counting upon the Epic's fan to provide that air conditioning?

;-) This topic is making me silly.

I'll leave the dead horse alone now.

I guess it is fair to say that Epic and Scarlet are designed to operate on a set that is 10' in diameter or more. Of course that has more to do with the sensor size and 35mm format optics than it does the fan. If your room is smaller than that, you have other things in addition to camera noise to contend with. In 10' or less a whole lot of camera systems are going to introduce noise. In that regard Red is not unique.

I wonder if Red could get Apple's newly designed fans, and if that would help.

 

[Solomon Walker]

I'll be very curious to see how much fan noise Sony's F5 and F55 have. The F65 is tolerable, though the mechanical shutter adds a lot more noise.

It looks like the new C500, when shooting 4K to an external recorder, also has fan noise issues. So it looks like this is going to be an issue with any small body camera filming at 4K and above.

About 1/3 of the way down the article he mentions the fan came on midway during a take, to the horror of the sound crew. Seemingly Canon is going to be adding a firmware update to allow more control over the fan; but it still sounds like a hairdryer when the camera is hot:

http://ninofilm.net/blog/2012/11/25/canon-eos-c500-review-short-film-alex/