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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Fan Noise

I've posted my findings (no need to be rogue with Marc). True that I would be happy to hear from REAL sound guys what they measure. I find the Epic/Scarlet can be extremely loud or extremely silent, depending on how clever are the people handling the camera.

Pat
 
It would appear that Epic is quieter than Scarlet even if you allowed a +/- 10db margin of error for my un-scientific technique. Interesting.I wish I were able to get >60db measurements out of my meter, but could only get a LO indicator. It was due to cheap stuff and user error no doubt.

Patrick Tresch said:
I find the Epic/Scarlet can be extremely loud or extremely silent, depending on how clever are the people handling the camera.
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That has been my contention as well.

Patrick's numbers are as I expected; Larger camera (significantly larger), less noise. Yes Marc, half as much noise. (correction: half the noise @60% fan) 3x the bulk. At those sizes you might not be able to get the kit into position in your small location. Did you consider F65 or Penelope?

This represents the small room dilemma as I have seen it. You have a 10-12' room and a 3-4' rig... That leaves no lens choices at all, next to no choice of composition and limited blocking choices. Best case scenario is CU @50mm, 2-shot @25 and establishing/small groups @12-15mm. You are literally back against the wall and in a corner from jump street.

If it isn't motivated by the script, I am loathe to shoot a CU @ >50mm. That is my typical threshold, 50mm with an 85-120 preference. (150mm for a big nose.) That is why I often prefer not to go to those locations. Get me 15' please.

I know the next argument well... "But it is motivated by the script, the location is like a character in the piece!" And then the debate goes on though out the scout. ;-)
 
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Scott Crawley said:
I requested measurements from other cameras so we could compare real numbers, so I don't understand why you are being such a wise ass about it. I know Epic and Scarlet are more noisy than some from personal experience. If you claim 2x as loud, show me the data and that will be cool with me.
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I would bow to Patrick Tresch's expertise, since he's come up with an actual solution for the Epic and Scarlet's fan, and has gone to the trouble of actually measuring the camera's real-world noise level. Look at his chart and tell me what you see.

What I can tell you is with the F35, with Alexa, with the Genesis, with the Canon C300, with most 1080 cameras, and with film, I barely hear the camera at all. The Red One was tolerable in most cases. But with the Epic, I never have to ask, "are we rolling?", simply because I immediately hear the change in fan level, assuming I'm within 25 feet of the camera.

Checking my levels on my Performance Audio dB Meter, they say 30dB is a quiet whisper, 40dB is a quiet home, 50dB is a quiet street, and 60dB is a quiet conversation. The problem is, if the camera starts out at 60dB, then it's going to drown out anything quieter than that. You put a couple of actors six feet away from a camera with a 40dB fan, you're going to hear almost as much fan noise as dialogue. And the problem is, if the nature of the fan noise is a broadband whine, this is not easy to surgically remove from the dialogue. This is exacerbated by some modern actors' artistic choice to mumble or speak very low.

To put a respectful spin on this, Red is aware of the problems and has improved the camera's noise level quite a bit since a year ago. And as Patrick's chart shows, the F65 with shutter is almost as noisy as the Epic. It makes you wonder if 4K data simply requires a huge amount of cooling compared to other cameras, and it's going to be a challenge dealing with that in any camera -- Red, Sony, or otherwise.
 
Marc Wielage said:
I would bow to Patrick Tresch's expertise, since he's come up with an actual solution for the Epic and Scarlet's fan, and has gone to the trouble of actually measuring the camera's real-world noise level. Look at his chart and tell me what you see. ...

Checking my levels on my Performance Audio dB Meter, they say 30dB is a quiet whisper, 40dB is a quiet home, 50dB is a quiet street, and 60dB is a quiet conversation. The problem is, if the camera starts out at 60dB, then it's going to drown out anything quieter than that. You put a couple of actors six feet away from a camera with a 40dB fan, you're going to hear almost as much fan noise as dialogue. And the problem is, if the nature of the fan noise is a broadband whine, this is not easy to surgically remove from the dialogue. This is exacerbated by some modern actors' artistic choice to mumble or speak very low.

To put a respectful spin on this, Red is aware of the problems and has improved the camera's noise level quite a bit since a year ago. And as Patrick's chart shows, the F65 with shutter is almost as noisy as the Epic. It makes you wonder if 4K data simply requires a huge amount of cooling compared to other cameras, and it's going to be a challenge dealing with that in any camera -- Red, Sony, or otherwise.
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If the Epic did indeed start out at 60db I would have no choice but to concede, but it doesn't. My Scarlet measurement was 61db at 41%. By Patrick's reckoning, Epic is 48-51.5db at 60% and at normal operating speeds of 25% fan the Epic is actually quieter than F65 and Alexa and on par with Penelope for noise. Under normal shooting conditions (for narrative cinema) 25% will get you there.

It seems apparent to me that 4k+ does simply require a huge amount of cooling. Some have said here that it shouldn't. I see no evidence of that. What I see is a simple challenge that we need to adapt to... And have stated as much.

If crews today are incapable of dealing with a fan, how would they ever have functioned in the analogue world? "Where is my monitor? I can't set an exposure without it! We can't achieve focus without it! This shouldn't be." Maybe craft is declining in the digital world.

Marc Wielage said:
What I can tell you is with the F35, with Alexa, with the Genesis, with the Canon C300, with most 1080 cameras, and with film, I barely hear the camera at all. The Red One was tolerable in most cases. But with the Epic, I never have to ask, "are we rolling?", simply because I immediately hear the change in fan level, assuming I'm within 25 feet of the camera.
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If sound needs me to power down during a set up so they can check levels I am fine with that. Otherwise I don't sweat what happens with the fan when we are not rolling. If some folks are embarrassed by the fan between takes I'm sorry, I can't empathize. It's a small price to pay for the imagery.

The immediate change in fan level is a good thing, no? I like to know that we are rolling. The feedback is kinda reassuring and sure, it's nice when the damn thing quiets down. :-)

BTW I am remiss for not thanking you earlier Patrick. Thanks for the data.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
If crews today are incapable of dealing with a fan, how would they ever have functioned in the analogue world?
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Analogue didn't make this much noise. Neither did the previous generation of Red cameras. I concede that the new generation of cameras have far more capabilities. And in noisy locations, the fan has only occasionally been an issue for me. In quiet dialogue scenes, yep, it's an issue.

If sound needs me to power down during a set up so they can check levels I am fine with that. Otherwise I don't sweat what happens with the fan when we are not rolling.
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If you work on major studio pictures, trust me, this is a big issue. It's come up many, many times on Wexler's sound group and also on Gearslutz. This is a major concern of both location sound mixers recording dialogue on-set, and re-recording mixers who have to deal with noisy dialogue tracks in post. The problem is multiplied when you have A&B cameras, or 3D cameras, or (god forbid) A&B 3D cameras -- which is four times the noise of a single camera.
 
Marc Wielage said:

If you work on major studio pictures, trust me, this is a big issue. It's come up many, many times on Wexler's sound group and also on Gearslutz. This is a major concern of both location sound mixers recording dialogue on-set, and re-recording mixers who have to deal with noisy dialogue tracks in post. The problem is multiplied when you have A&B cameras, or 3D cameras, or (god forbid) A&B 3D cameras -- which is four times the noise of a single camera.
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I'm not sure what you are responding to here. The quote said "when we are not rolling". The camera is roughly equivalent to "a quiet conversation" at 60% between takes.

I don't doubt you when you say that some people have had difficulty managing fan noise and it has come up as an issue but as I have tried to point out, and Patrick has backed up with numbers it is not a camera specific issue. It is likely an operator issue because cooling can be managed in a way that does not interfere in the vast majority of cases.

If it is 90° on set and you are filming six feet from your subject in a dead quiet room then you may have a scenario in which the fan is a real issue but otherwise it really isn't. Now if you are on a major studio picture and the set is 90° and you are filming six feet from your subject in a dead quiet room then chances are you have the budget bring in some A/C. Problem solved. Hell even a small budget film can afford to cool a 12' room.
 
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It is a big drawback of shooting RED (and thus people shooting alexa). And how beautiful the picture will be, 5K or 6K, MX, or dragon, the camera just shouldn't make that much noise...If the body would be 10% or even 20% bigger, but would be silent, i think nobody would care with the extra space that is needed to kill to vacuumcleaner inside the camera. The inside of the camera is already for nearly half dedicated to cooling, so there should be enough space to work something out. add a top fan at lower speed, find a better/more silent front fan, etc, i don't know, but please red, work on this problem asap!
 
Scott Crawley said:
Now if you are on a major studio picture and the set is 90° and you are filming six feet from your subject in a dead quiet room then chances are you have the budget bring in some A/C. Problem solved. Hell even a small budget film can afford to cool a 12' room.
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You assume we can roll while the air conditioning is running. Not possible in many situations I've been in.

When the camera is running full blast inbetween takes, it makes it very hard for the sound mixer to anticipate dialogue changes, head turns, and all the other subtleties that require constant shifting of levels while dialogue is recording. It would be similar to somebody turning on a 10K light in the middle of a set, and then killing it only when the scene is actually being shot. Same problem -- we're experiencing conditions that are contrary to what the scene is really about. So that's one of the complaints.

The second complaint is just the "normal" camera fan noise level, which is not conducive to good, noise-free dialogue. It's not always a problem (certainly almost unnoticeable in exteriors), but you put two actors in a location kitchen with hard walls and hardwood floors, it's a big problem. Twice as bad with A&B cameras. To pretend it's not a problem is to ignore reality.
 
I make no such assumption. We crank the air between takes and kill it when we roll and get on fine.

I don't know how the cam's behavior when there is no action prohibits the sound dept from anticipating action during a take, but I'm not a sound person. If your people are having that trouble I would suggest an additional camera rehersal to run the blocking some more, presuming one has been done in the first place.

Mostly what I hear from the guys I work with is trepidation. It is fear that the standby noise level will remain constant, but then we roll and he breathes a sigh of relief. Sometimes we need to tweak the fan settings but for the most part we learn to trust and work together and all is good.

Hardwood floors reflect all manner of sounds so I understand they need special attention. I don't pretend to have all of the answers, so I try to work with sound people who do have them. ;-) In your 6 ft. Close up scenario there is room for all sorts of dampening materials outside of the frame and the mic can be very close as well.

I don't know how many times I must agree that fan noise is something to contend with for others to stop telling me that I am denying reality. I work with the realities of my Scarlet and my crews help me deal with it. Some folks find solutions while others only see the problem. The crews I choose to work on try to be the former.

Marc Wielage said:
You assume we can roll while the air conditioning is running. Not possible in many situations I've been in.

When the camera is running full blast inbetween takes, it makes it very hard for the sound mixer to anticipate dialogue changes, head turns, and all the other subtleties that require constant shifting of levels while dialogue is recording. It would be similar to somebody turning on a 10K light in the middle of a set, and then killing it only when the scene is actually being shot. Same problem -- we're experiencing conditions that are contrary to what the scene is really about. So that's one of the complaints.

The second complaint is just the "normal" camera fan noise level, which is not conducive to good, noise-free dialogue. It's not always a problem (certainly almost unnoticeable in exteriors), but you put two actors in a location kitchen with hard walls and hardwood floors, it's a big problem. Twice as bad with A&B cameras. To pretend it's not a problem is to ignore reality.
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I find the Epic/Scarlet can be extremely loud or extremely silent, depending on how clever are the people handling the camera.
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Guys, just set up a buttton (I use the Still/Motion) to switch between Auto and Manual fan, Set it to whatever % you want in both standby and record. And when you need to, usually in the set-up or rehearsal, switch it on. Just don't forget to switch it back i fyou don't want to burn the camera.

What Patrick said about being clever, is clever.

This is a non-problem if you handle the camera correctly.
 
For me, the Fan issue is the single weakest point in EPIC's chain. But I have to say, given the power of the camera, I cannot fathom how they will get this problem solved.

That said, I am 100% confident that Jarred & Jim are EXTREMELY aware of this issue, and the very second a way exists to silence the camera, they will explore it. In the meantime, I'll use EPIC for what works and something else when it doesn't.. But I just finished a music video with the camera last night, and my God... It's amazing.
 
In the spirit of trying to be more helpful I have been considering Marc's evolving scenario in it's current stage of development.

It is:
Small room practical location (say 12'?)
Hardwood floor
close up 6 ft to subject. (35-50mm?)

I would start with a shotgun with good off axis rejection located in front of and above the talent just out of frame, oriented toward the mouth so it will be downward facing. I would position dampening material below them and on the floor and lower part of the wall behind them (As high as the frame allows) to reduce reflections. Keep the room below 75º, running A/C high before shooting and off during. Fan speeds of 60% in standby 25% during takes and rehearsals if requested. I'm not sure I would push much below 25% unless the takes were running on the short side.

If things were really extreme I might poke the lens through a sound dampening screen that stood high enough to shield behind the mic as well to reduce sound reflections behind the lens and mic, but that has never even been suggested to me. Good off axis rejection I guess makes that unnecessary.

As I said I'm not a location sound person by trade, but I have enough experience to be dangerous. ;-) How would you all set it up and what would be your mic of choice?

Rob Castiglione said:
I typically use a longer lens for interviews (a short telephoto will do) and the Sanken CSe -3 which has pretty amazing off axis rejection. I have never had a problem with fan noise.
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That Sanken looks pretty sweet Rob.
 
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Patrick Tresch said:
What causes heat is not (only) the size of the sensor or xK numbers. It's the processing going on on the back ground to compress the footage to R3D in realtime (wich is a miracle...).
...

Now I'm sure, a new camera design only 20% bigger with a better fan/cooling path/heatsink could solve all heating problems.

Patrick
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That's precisely what I always thought this camera really needed, 20% additional space dedicated to cooling. Or possibly a DSMC module for the same purpose. Now it looks like a third party solution is in the works.

We've had these issues with the fan noise becoming unmanageable during long takes. We quickly learned to set up frequent breaks for the talent while we cooled down the sensor. Definitely not ideal.
 
Scott Crawley said:
I would start with a shotgun with good off axis rejection located in front of and above the talent just out of frame, oriented toward the mouth so it will be downward facing. I would position dampening material below them and on the floor and lower part of the wall behind them (As high as the frame allows) to reduce reflections. Keep the room below 75º, running A/C high before shooting and off during. Fan speeds of 60% in standby 25% during takes and rehearsals if requested. I'm not sure I would push much below 25% unless the takes were running on the short side.
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I just worked on a fairly significant awards-show Epic project last week where the fan went all the way up to 100% after a 34-minute interview take. We were able to take a break, and the interview resumed with no problem. We did multiple interviews all day, and only one take suffered from this problem. Overhead airplanes and copters in the neighborhood were actually worse.

As much as I prefer boom mics, in a highly-reflective room with definite acoustic problems, a top-notch lavalier will often provide better results in terms of eliminating the room, from the problem. It's not ideal, but I find it preferable in a difficult interview situation. Creating a "tunnel" with sound blankets on C-stands also helps, provided it's single camera and the lighting permits it.

Patrick's Fan Plate is a huge step in the right direction, and I applaud him and his company for coming up with this idea.
 
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