F5/55

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Well, professional usually don't buy cameras, they rent...

My bad. Didnt realize we were talkn just owner op.. I thought we were just talkn general

 

[Emanuel A.]

Well, professional usually don't buy cameras, they rent...

Usually is a dangerous word... Today can become different of what we usually know from past ; ) And I don't remember to have heard about important rentals for guitar players

 

[Timur Civan]

owner ops aren't professionals?

 

[Emanuel A.]

owner ops aren't professionals?

Sure not, they are renters ;-)

 

[Valentin Paris]

No I did not say that.

I did not say professional Red owners are not pro, but, trust me, Red and this Sony cams are very Indy friendly...That's why Red made the Scarlet, that's why Red want to make a price drop on the Epic, and found the best solution to reduce the cost of everything... Look at the Alexa side...It is a pro tool not Indy friendly and NO price drop. of course.

Anyway, I think pro will use HDR and still lenses...Why not ?

I remember this quote from Jarred said that Red camera are made to have great image quality without a team of 10 people making light and everything.

So, professional is a strange word...For me it is just people making money with their work...

Well, when I think professional cinema people, I think about people who dont care about the camera market...

This thread is a geeky thread, and I think lot of RED lovers are geeks too, that why we talk about all these cameras and all the technological work.

We did not talk anything about cinema, creativity or ideas, we talk about tech specs. That just a geek thread...Only geek people (pro or not) are interested and excited about 6K and 7K and Slow mo...And professional techniciens and Engineers are geeks

 

[Jean Bernard]

preaching to the convert... but when my Epic collects dust because producers hate red and wants an Alexa because its quieter, better workflow, diatomic range, etc... I have to listen so if the market goes towards F5/F55 I must re-evaluate my choices. Jury is not out yet.

The good thing is... red started this revolution and I trust they are cocking up something. Perhaps a dragon with Toia module(mini Meissler), global shutter, Internal IR/ND's, drastically less FAN NOISE, better audio, NON-CROP on higher framerate, etc...

Just have to wait and see but his is exiting time to be in this business

I really don't understand why someone here try to compare this sony joke camera.

It is just INCOMPARABLE ! Come one !

The sony F5/F55 are far bigger, need to have an additional recorder for 4K (make them bigger again), don't shoot in 5K. Will be not upgradable.

Where is the HDR mode ? Hahaha.

Can I use Canon lens on the sony ? Nikon ? Leica ? Again, let me laugh !

Really, RED is far far better on many points.

The design of the EPIC/SCARLET is like a DSLR, this is just amazing to have this in the hand !

It is an amazing tool for the size.

Trust me, Red is still unbeatable on his territory. Even the Alexa is just incomparable, it is a 12 kilos camera again 2 kilos of the red epic !

The red epic is still a kind a miracle in the technology world.

Like the monochrome Epic, I am pretty sure that the dragon sensor will blow our minds and just move the other cameras away.

 

[Mark Toia]

Is there a Sony Forum... ?

Be good if there was.

 

[Valentin Paris]

but when my Epic collects dust because producers hate red and wants an Alexa because its quieter, better workflow, diatomic range, etc... I have to listen so if the market goes towards F5/F55 I must re-evaluate my choices. Jury is not out yet.

The good thing is... red started this revolution and I trust they are cocking up something. Perhaps a dragon with Toia module(mini Meissler), global shutter, Internal IR/ND's, drastically less FAN NOISE, better audio, NON-CROP on higher framerate, etc...

Just have to wait and see but his is exiting time to be in this business

Yes. Well, Alexa is a completely different cine tool.

The red epic is a Digital Still and Motion camera ! I like the Epic because it's versatile ! I can shoot everything, can have very light configuration to shoot like a big DSLR and catch expressions and faces I CAN'T catch with my Canon 5DMII ! I can make amazing slow motion that the alexa can't...etc.

I think Red is in the different philosophy. Red never made a film camera, but Arri did. That, I think, all the difference in the philosophy of each company.

 

[Jason Diamond]

I love my Epics and luckily my clients don't care what I shoot on they care that they get me, my gear/kit is a bonus to them.

I personally think Sony is late to the game and they can fight it out with Alexa/Arri.

Global shutter is nice but a 5K RAW image in my shirt pocket SSD with no external recorders and a workflow I've been comfortable with for 6years gets my vote.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

No it did not bother me.

How did you feel about the 30% less resolution with Alexa Studio ana vs. Epic 5K ana? I thought is was very significant on the big screen.

I know I'm in the minority here, but... resolution isn't everything.

I'd take a proper full-app 2x anamorphic over any 16x9 sensor crop ana any day (just my opinion).

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

I love my Epics and luckily my clients don't care what I shoot on they care that they get me, my gear/kit is a bonus to them.

I personally think Sony is late to the game and they can fight it out with Alexa/Arri.

Global shutter is nice but a 5K RAW image in my shirt pocket SSD with no external recorders and a workflow I've been comfortable with for 6years gets my vote.

AGREED +1

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well, professional usually don't buy cameras, they rent...

Many pro users buy the camera they use often to help their bottom line - then rent it to their own jobs. That's what we do. We rent other stuff (lights, grip etc.) mostly from others.

Sometimes we also rent other cameras for our jobs, because the producer requests it or because of some specialty need (C300 for ultra low light, for example, or Viper for extreme slo-mo).

 

[Mark K.]

It's a fascinating market at the moment, when I finally decided to buy my own camera (rather than renting) I did so because it made financial sense over the cost of renting all the time. However as the market's been driven further and further down by lower-cost cameras (and equivalently lowered rental rates) - I'm starting to think it might make more sense to go back to renting since it's so affordable now!

Let other shmucks deal with the pains of constantly upgrading cameras! :yesnod:

 

[Tanner Field]

Actually I have. And frankly, when I look at tests, I don't just concern myself with tech specs. I evaluate the image as a whole. The EPIC's sensor is too small to use proper anamorphic lenses (1.33 / 35mm full aperture gate). You MUST CROP the Epic's image when shooting 2x Ana. Is it acceptable? Is it sweet-looking? Sure, but you're also throwing away a lot of the image where the anamorphic look is highly exaggerated (top, bottom, left and right). Which means you're not getting everything the lens is trying to show you. The Alexa (and the Phantom HD Gold) are really the only cameras out there that will give you that true, full-frame anamorphic look.
I shot a quick full-app anamorphic test a couple days back. Perhaps I'll post it if you ask nicely...

Adrian, please do. I couldn't agree more with what you said.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

I can do high frame rates with no cropping now on my Epic. The Epic, all told, beats this camera in most ways. We have almost never run out of dynamic range, few times have we needed to think about HDR - very few (although those times I have been thankful for it,. and it worked great with minimal post fuss) If you are shooting with a 50K camera, likely you have lights and fast lenses - rather than shooting with no lights at all with f5.6 plastic zooms - so do you really need ISO 12 500 - in my experience, no - I just wish Red sold an ND filter wheel that was IR tuned as an accessory.

As for CMOS skew - really has not been an issue for us, ever - and you can get a Tessive filter for less than the price difference between Epic and this cam.

Epic is also perfect weight for long Steadicam use, technojib, etc.

Not much of a threat to Epic. Does other things differently.

If anything i think it will help Epic sales - you do a comparison of the latest and greatest Sony to Epic and you say "Well, Epic is a pretty good deal now isn't it."

I'm glad Sony sees no need to race to the bottom pricing - I hope Red will concur (they have an Ultra cheap Scarlet, which more than serves the needs of a beginner filmmaker, as does Sony have an FS 100 et. all).

A high end staying a high end is a good thing. For those who say that is Elitist I ask - Do you want to spend the rest of your life making $200 a day and being your own P.A., or do you want there to be another world out there, that you can work hard and get to?

Do you want the market for cameras to eb so bad that only Chinese semi-slave labour can survive?

Hey Man,

I love my Epic too so you are preaching to the choir... so none of what you are saying is new to me. I realise this cause I work with my boy day in day out... all the same, it doesn't diminish the fine qualities of the new Sony. I shoot a lot of music videos, so you... to not have split screen because of a flash and rolling shutter would be wonderful.The reality is, this camera is extremely usable.

Ivan

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

IMO the Meizler Module is MUCH more important to the success of EPIC than the Dragon sensor. And while a price reduction will certainly help sell more cameras - Meizler Module really makes the EPIC system a different camera. It's not just proxy recording - it's a bunch of other meta-data workflow feature advantages RED isn't even talking about yet.
...
Personally, I would love to see every showrunner in the business testing the F55 and also EPIC + Meizler Module in early Q1 of next year.

Nice insights, Mark. This is what I'm suggesting in other posts on these forums. RED should focus on reducing the price of the Meisler module ASAP instead of the brain pricing. I'd place an order for one, for sure, if they did. The focus can't be pricing of the brain alone. That's too narrow a view. We didn't buy just the brain. We bought into the REDCODE solution.

The focus for RED has to be enabling competition with Alexa and that includes the Meisler module and an inexpensive, updated Red Rocket2. If the mini-Meisler module is ready to go, then great. Add that to the mix for a lower price too, but there can't be a delay waiting for that anymore.

Simply reducing the pricing on the brain would, IMHO, be such a misfire.

Hope RED is listening...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I know I'm in the minority here, but... resolution isn't everything.

I'd take a proper full-app 2x anamorphic over any 16x9 sensor crop ana any day (just my opinion).

Just to put it into perspective:

ALEXA Studio 4:3 RAW recording mode is 2880 x 2160 with physical dimensions of 23.76mm x 17.82mm.

EPIC 4:3 maximum is 3600 x 2700 pixels with physical dimensions of 19.44mm x 14.58mm.



The EPIC offers a 25% increase in pixel count while respectively having an 18% reduction in sensor size or area.


One can draw their own conclusions, but I've seen EPIC anamorphic footage as well and it's awesome. The reduction or cropping of the sensor area to me is a negligible price to pay for the increased resolution and I couldn't see where it had any adverse effects on getting the desired anamorphic bokeh properties or streaking flares. Just as resolution isn't everything, neither is sensor size. And we presumably have larger sensors coming anyway. Dragon offers a small bump in size with even more resolution. RED has announced in the past larger sensor cameras. I'm still lusting over the possibility of that EPIC-645 and EPIC-617.... Hopefully, some day...

 

[Casey Green]

2013 is the end of 1080p as we know it. With recent camera, display, and standards announcements, we are now witnessing the inevitable change that RED ushered in.

Alexa was a nice camera, but I'd say, judging by the specs (test are still needed), that this Sony camera is the first to really start to challenge EPIC. But RED has so many tricks up it's sleeve that I believe Sony and others are still playing catch up. With the price reductions, they are going to be able to turn quicker and I anticipate that the Dragon upgrade will also include a major upgrade in horsepower for EPIC (and possibly Scarlet).

If RED reduces prices, and makes a Meizler equipped Dragon camera less expensive than the other offerings, we will see RED continue to accelerate ahead.

But I sure do feel sorry for those rental houses and customers who bought F65s and continue to be taken advantage of by companies that obsolete their products within their first 6-12 months.

 

[Peter Moretti]

I think Jim / Jarred should NOT pass all the price reduction to the EPIC brain. Split the difference EPIC brain and Meizler Module. The more Meizler Modules out there working - the faster EPIC gains further traction - the more brains they will sell. Meizler is a steal IMO at $13K - given all of it's features - but if RED has wiggle room on pricing - IMO they should lower EPIC less than they plan - and lower the Meizler Module a bit more. OR ... offer a price reduced bundle - new EPIC + Meizler Module bundle for XXX$$ - just thinking out loud here.

Agreed. As the real Achilles’ heel with the new Sony cams is no DNxHD or ProRes recording.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Mark, I suspect I now know what happened to 0006.

This is a nice camera, but am I missing something? Everyone is comparing it to Epic? It may equal, almost compare, and in a few cases may even be better, but it's more then a year later. It does blow epic out of the water. At best it catch up. Red has had this on the drawing board for over three years, so in way it's almost outdated. It will take sony a while to catch up. My guess is a majority of the F5 will be used in ENG shooting scenarios 1080p and never see 4k.

Also, how on earth can it be a "red killer" or "epic killer" There are something like 6000 epics out there and 4000 scarlets already.

I can't tell you the value of shooting the stuff I have over the past year in 5k. This means a full series that will last years longer. Dollar wise that is huge.

There are leaders and followers.