Explanation of different sensor sizes in Scarlet-W vs. Scarlet Dragon?

[Dustin Hoye]

I see a lot of discussion about the benefits of the W vs. the Dragon, when it comes to the Scarlet. However, I haven't been able to turn up any discussions on the difference in the sensor sizes, between the two cameras.

The Scarlet-W is a 13.8 MP CMOS Dragon sensor and the Scarlet Dragon is the 19 MP Dragon sensor. (Red's website doesn't specify on the specs page if this is CMOS also, or not.)

I've always understood that the larger sensor size would be the better decision. Could someone please explain this, if this is not the case? I assume it is a trade-off in the pricing or addition of better compression and FPS that the SW has, over the SD?

Thanks in advance!!

Dustin

 

[Phil Holland]

It is a CMOS sensor. The sensor size itself is the "same", meaning 5K on both cameras is the same format size. Outside of doing stills and timelapse you don't use 6K on Scarlet Dragon for much more than that. And yep, there's been various improvements to the Scarlet-W as the DSMC2 concept has added better data rates, optical performance, dynamic range, and various other features.

 

[Dustin Hoye]

Thanks Phil- I really appreciate you helping me to better understand this.

So, are the 19 Megapixels in the SD attributed to the 6K capability/difference? I guess I am letting the drop from 19 to 13.8 hang me up- and possibly for the wrong reasons.

Just to clear this up for anyone else too, are there any advantages, in any respect to image quality, to having more Megapixels when comparing 5K to 5K, between the two cameras? (Or does this become moot when considering the better compression ratios?)

Thanks again, this will be a great upgrade for us, either way!

Sincerely,
Dusty

 

[Fabricio Morato]

The 19mp on the SD is only accessible, as Phil mentioned, when shooting stills or time lapses, since in 6k mode the max fps is 12. Meaning that for film/video work shooting 24fps or more, you will use the same 5k sensor area from the ScarletW, since their sensors have the same pixel size.
So the better compressions on the ScarletW, and dsmc2 eletronics, will likely provide better IQ.

 

[Dustin Hoye]

Thanks Fabricio. (and Phil) Makes perfect sense.

Purely out of (morbid) curiosity, is it fair to say that the SW would have coverage closer/at the edges of the physical sensor than the SD would, when shooting 5K between the two? Has anyone ever noticed, in any camera, where this might have an effect on an image? No biggie, just honestly curious.

SD: 30.7 mm (h) x 15.8 mm (v) x 34.5 mm (d)

SW: 25.6 mm (h) x 13.5 mm (v) x 28.9 mm (d)

I should mention that I am in for the SW over the SD, just stressing the shipping dates for some upcoming shoots abroad. Seems like it's always the case!

 

[Fabricio Morato]

Not quite sure if I understood this question (sorry) but it was actually stated that scarletw would use the same phisical sensor that weapon/epic. And that it would not be active beyond 5k.
Hope this help.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

what's been pointed out to me before as I wasn't the savviest on how the sensor/photosites and everything worked on Red, is that...

-- on an Epic or Scarlet - 4k is the same - better compression and high speed on the Epic

what they mean by IQ is Image Quality, so if you took the MX, Dragon and Weapon, the the image quality at 4k resolution, 6:1 compression would best on the Weapon

 

[Terry VerHaar]

For clarification - the Dragon sensors (in Epic D, Scarlet D and Weapons series cameras, including Scarlet-W and Raven) - have smaller photo sites than the MX sensors. The image area of 5K on a Dragon is about the same as a 4K image on MX cameras.

So - all Dragon and Weapon series cameras are exactly the same (in terms of image size) at a given resolution. But, they are different than MX.

As for the sensors in each of the various Weapon class cameras, they are indeed varying physical sizes; Raven is smaller than Scarlet-W which is smaller than Weapon.

 

[Irene Valle Luna]

Good question Dustin Will wait if someone help with that.

 

[Daniel Reed]

To summarize the below - larger sensor equals less (more shallow) depth of field all else equal

meaning shots on Scar-D will look more shallow and have more bokah then a Scar-W


Maybe someone should test this somewhere - perhaps red is doing some(more) voodoo magic in these nuclear boxes!

AND please correct me if I am wrong...

I am from the school of thought that states the imaging plane effects DOF

a larger sensor/focus plate = shallower depth of field (regardless of windowing) everything else equal


The 6K Dragon sensors in Weapon6K-MG/CF Epic/Scarlet-Dragon should all be the same physical size and same chip.
Thus regardless of windowing should provide the exact same DOF at all resolutions everything-else-equal

The Scarlet-W has a smaller cut of the dragon sensor and thus has a deeper (less shallow) depth of field EEE

The Raven has an even smaller cut and provides an even deeper (much less shallow) depth of field EEE


*EEE Every Else Equal, i.e. same lens, same distance to focus point, and same aperture



If the above is true, then...
RaVen will rock better for steadi/gimbal/indie - easier to keep more subjects in acceptable focus while still being very cinematic (should offer b&w option)
Scarlet-W will fit best for folks that absolutely need a closer exact match to legacy Super35 look/feel/dof
cutting edge cinema is all about 6K Weapon/Epic...
bleeding edge and awe inspiring inserts is all about mastering the 8K Monster!!!
for youtubers and the nofilmschool crowd... just shuddup and use an iPhone - I mean, they did to for tangerine right?!

ok, that last comment line was sarcastic


FYI, I have no clue if focal reducers/enlargers change DOF results


AND all of the above could be completely wrong in the RED kingdom, maybe all Dragons have the same DOF and sit on the same focus plane and the smaller cuts of the chip act the same way as windows on the larger sensor!

I guess we'll only real know when someone shoots a test to compare 4K DOF on Weapon vs 4K DOF on Raven

 

[Adam Hagenbuch]

Larger sensors don't just magically produce shallower depth of field. They ALLOW for more shallow depth of field because you can physically move the camera closer to the subject while retaining a wider field of view. With cropped sensors you must move your camera further and further away from your subject to produce the same field of view as a larger sensor and thus you must throw focus further and get less separation between subject and background.

Focal reducers enhance depth of field by reducing the image circle from a lens to fit all onto a smaller sensor size allowing you to bring your camera closer to the subject. Focal enlargers do just the opposite. Typically focal reducers with an optical element will also give an additional stop of light because they are compressing the light into a smaller more concentrated area, whereas focal enlargers will reduce the speed by a stop or two because they are dispersing the light into a wider field.

The resolution between the SD and the SW is the same at 5k. they both have the same sensor with the same pixel sizes. only the MX has a different FOV with 5k which was because the pixels were physically larger than the Dragons.

 

[Erick Liu]

They are pretty much the same sensor, one is rated a 6K, one 5K

 

[Brian Merlen]

adam please post more often, excellent post!

 

[Josh Becker]

To summarize the below - larger sensor equals less (more shallow) depth of field all else equal

meaning shots on Scar-D will look more shallow and have more bokah then a Scar-W

No. That would only apply to motion (23.976fps+) IF the Scarlet Dragon could capture 6K video. It can't. Therefore, you're left with a 5K SENSOR CROP for video on the Scarlet Dragon. The cropping into the sensor is the size of the 5K sensor in the Scarlet-W. So comparing apples to apples, they both capture 5K video with the same size sensor, same field of view, same depth of field, same everything. The ONLY increase in sensor size/resolution you get on the Scarlet Dragon is for STILLS.

Sorry for all the caps, just trying to emphasize key differences that I don't think people were connecting.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Larger sensors don't just magically produce shallower depth of field. They ALLOW for more shallow depth of field because you can physically move the camera closer to the subject while retaining a wider field of view. With cropped sensors you must move your camera further and further away from your subject to produce the same field of view as a larger sensor and thus you must throw focus further and get less separation between subject and background.

Focal reducers enhance depth of field by reducing the image circle from a lens to fit all onto a smaller sensor size allowing you to bring your camera closer to the subject. Focal enlargers do just the opposite. Typically focal reducers with an optical element will also give an additional stop of light because they are compressing the light into a smaller more concentrated area, whereas focal enlargers will reduce the speed by a stop or two because they are dispersing the light into a wider field.

The resolution between the SD and the SW is the same at 5k. they both have the same sensor with the same pixel sizes. only the MX has a different FOV with 5k which was because the pixels were physically larger than the Dragons.

THIS!

There is no need for "tests" as it is a simple application of the laws of physics.

Unlike DSLRS where the entire sensor was used for HD, but used binning and line skipping, RED has always windowed the sensor to produce the lower resolutions. A "window" on the sensor is exactly like having a smaller sensor so it behaves as such in terms of FOV and DOF.

And, as I said above, all Dragon sensors are the same pixel density/size of photo site even if they differ in the frame rates available at a particular size or, in the case of Raven and Scarlet-W, the actual dimensions are "cut down" from the 6K of Epic, Scarlet, and Weapon.

 

[Chris Jordan]

THIS helped me understand! SO the smaller sensor in Raven which also is less Megapixels, is because it was taken from the bigger sensor with more megapixels.

 

[Björn Benckert]

To summarize the below - larger sensor equals less (more shallow) depth of field all else equal

meaning shots on Scar-D will look more shallow and have more bokah then a Scar-W


Maybe someone should test this somewhere - perhaps red is doing some(more) voodoo magic in these nuclear boxes!

AND please correct me if I am wrong...

I am from the school of thought that states the imaging plane effects DOF

a larger sensor/focus plate = shallower depth of field (regardless of windowing) everything else equal


The 6K Dragon sensors in Weapon6K-MG/CF Epic/Scarlet-Dragon should all be the same physical size and same chip.
Thus regardless of windowing should provide the exact same DOF at all resolutions everything-else-equal

The Scarlet-W has a smaller cut of the dragon sensor and thus has a deeper (less shallow) depth of field EEE

The Raven has an even smaller cut and provides an even deeper (much less shallow) depth of field EEE


*EEE Every Else Equal, i.e. same lens, same distance to focus point, and same aperture



If the above is true, then...
RaVen will rock better for steadi/gimbal/indie - easier to keep more subjects in acceptable focus while still being very cinematic (should offer b&w option)
Scarlet-W will fit best for folks that absolutely need a closer exact match to legacy Super35 look/feel/dof
cutting edge cinema is all about 6K Weapon/Epic...
bleeding edge and awe inspiring inserts is all about mastering the 8K Monster!!!
for youtubers and the nofilmschool crowd... just shuddup and use an iPhone - I mean, they did to for tangerine right?!

ok, that last comment line was sarcastic


FYI, I have no clue if focal reducers/enlargers change DOF results


AND all of the above could be completely wrong in the RED kingdom, maybe all Dragons have the same DOF and sit on the same focus plane and the smaller cuts of the chip act the same way as windows on the larger sensor!

I guess we'll only real know when someone shoots a test to compare 4K DOF on Weapon vs 4K DOF on Raven

Epic dargon and Wepon dragon is completely different beasts. So I assume the same about scarlet dragon and scarlet weapon. To me the difference between weapon and dragon is pretty much as long of a leap as epic MX to dragon. Simply put everything is better. Far less noise better olpf & lens cavity and all the other stuff. Its like you can not compare the two. Weapon has an extra stop in the low end, that makes it alone twice as good as epic dragon to me.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Both the Scarlet Dragon and the Scarlet-W are shown as having the exact same signal to noise ratio (80) and the exact same dynamic range (16.5 stops). Where does it say you get an "extra stop in the low end"?

Stephen

 

[Björn Benckert]

Both the Scarlet Dragon and the Scarlet-W are shown as having the exact same signal to noise ratio (80) and the exact same dynamic range (16.5 stops). Where does it say you get an "extra stop in the low end"?

Stephen

I have not checked for scarlet but weapon dragon has far higher data rates than dragon. And according to what I tested that gives about a stop of more info in the bottom that can be used / is not drowning in noise. But what you say is that scarlet W and scarlet dragon has the same data rates? the 16.5 stops has been the bench testing result since dragon came out but things has changed since then as I see it, mini mags and weapon tech and also olpf improvements has made it possible to grab those 16.5 stops at lower light now than what was possible before. and the messurement of possible stops is not really the same as stops you can use. Weapon simply has more usable stops out of those 16.5 as I see it.

 

[Louis Vieira]

This may be a dumb question but does anyone know why the SCARLET DRAGON would cost 4k more than the SCARLET-W? Scratching my head why you would get a older model that costs more.