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EX1 vs. RED

feltonphoto said:
Okay, I'm new to this site and I'm confused. I surfed in here when I saw a lens test for the Nikon f 1.4 85mm AF lens. Good post - very well done. So I registered and now I'm in. BUT WHAT IS ALL THIS TALK ABOUT RED? RED WHAT? Is it a sensor, a camera, a technique, a religion, a state of mind? I surfed around on FAQ but didn't get the answer.

This is a sincere question. Thanks! FeltonPhoto
Click to expand...

Try red.com.
 
John Godden said:
I fail to see how the EX1 is an "HVX killer". They are quite different tools and the codecs are sufficiently different to make a 'simple comparison' impossible.
Click to expand...

A comparison between EX1 and HVX is much more realistic than between either and RED - they both aim to do very similar things.

I see the EX1 as an "HVX killer" because I see it as being targeted at the same market. And I believe the usability and performance of the EX1 is significantly better than the HVX.

This doesn't apply between either of those cameras as RED, because the RED is trying to be a very different product and appeal to quite a different market. Even if you only consider it's PL-mount lens support it makes it pretty much an impossible comparison. Once you consider the resolution and RAW recording options in the RED, then it really can't be compared to any of the existing small-format HD cameras.
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
To insinuate that there is actually a case for a comparison between the RED and EX1 shows that you're just here to throw rocks. You know for a fact there is no comparison to be made between the two in either cost or performance.
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I found a serious flaw in your argument, could you explain to me how Red one beats EX1 for cost when for the price of a Red one that can actually shoot something I can just about have a complete workflow from shot to post on the EX1.
 
Yeah I can't wait to check that latitude of EX1 in real world situations. I know what I can pull from Red footage. And that comes from 12 bit 216/288 Mb/s RAW.
Now think of multi level color grading effect to 8 bit 35 Mb/s Mpeg2.
 
Ex1 is a mass market item. Sony will sell millions of these. RED is intended for movie houses. comparing them is unfair.

It is better to compare RED to Dalsa or Panavision .

The Origin II camera is best known for its image quality, and is generally considered to be the leader in that regard. The camera has a resolution of approximately 4K by 2K, or 8 megapixels. Beyond resolution, the camera is unique in its ability to capture at a very high bit depth. The camera outputs an uncompressed, RAW Bayer pattern 16-bit image, which is considerably higher than other cameras which are limited to 8, 10 or 12 bits. This results in a linear exposure latitude equivalent to more than 13 stops. The images created by the Origin II camera are widely regarded as having more visible resolution and more dynamic range than any other digital cinema camera. The current configuration of the camera can run 1-30 frames per second. The Origin II camera features an optical reflex viewing system with rotating mirror similar to 35mm film cameras and uses standard PL mount 35mm film gate lenses. The camera is approximately the same size and weight as an average 35mm film cameras with a 400' magazine.

The camera outputs raw data to an off board storage unit at a rate of approximately 400 megabytes per second. The Origin II connects to the storage unit by an extremely rugged, thin and flexible mil-spec fiber optic cable. This fiber cable can be run for over a mile without any signal degradation or repeating. The storage unit that has been used most often is the Codex Digital recorder, which will hold about two hours of uncompressed 4K camera RAW footage. In January 2008 S.Two began shipping the DFR4K recorder, which can also capture images from the Origin II camera. S.Two also manufacturers of a system of 4K workflow products that are compatible with the Origin II camera's 4K images.
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The Genesis uses a 12.4 megapixel CCD chip, arranged in a 5760x2160 horizontally RGB filtered array. The vertical resolution is cut in half to 1080 by pixel binning, so the final output pixel resolution is 1920x1080, about 2/3 the resolution of a 2k film scan. The chip has a HDTV-style 16:9 (1.78:1) aspect ratio, similar in size to Super35 3-Perf film. The CCD active area is .930 in. x .523 in. This is a significant breakthrough in that it allows just about any Panavision spherical 35mm cine lens to be used. However there are as yet unanswered questions about the resultant color quality, since single-chip NTSC and PAL color cameras using the exact same color-stripe sampling technique have always performed poorly compared to equivalent 3-chip models. The main imaging module of the Genesis is made by Sony, but the exact relationship between the two companies is unclear, since their joint partnership was dissolved in 2004 with Panavision's re-purchase of the 8% shareholding Sony bought in 2000.

The Genesis can record in a custom Panalog color space, which is a log color space that it is also 4:4:4 unlike traditional HD. The tone-curve is different than the Cineon log format used for film post-production, but preserves highlight detail that would be lost with typical video gamma correction.

There have also been numerous complaints about the small black and white viewfinders available, which are virtually useless for critical focus. To address this, Panavision uses the Sony HDVF-C30W TFT color LCD viewfinder (960x540 pixels), and is compatible with both the CineAlta and the Genesis cameras. The D-20, Arri's answer to the Genesis, incorporates a reflex optical viewfinder to address this concern.
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The above are quoted from wiki.
 
It is. XDCAM EX is essentially HDV. It has the same overall Long-GOP structure. What is different is the bitrate (35Mbit VBR vs. 25Mbit CBR) and raster size (1920x1080 vs. 1440x1080). Obviously it's also a few generations on from original HDV, so it will have gained from quite a lot more development in terms of image optimisation and stuff.
 
Well 1920x1080 vs. 1440x1080 is a pretty big difference, and kind of takes it out of the "HDV" range in my mind anyway.
 
Tom said:
Well 1920x1080 vs. 1440x1080 is a pretty big difference, and kind of takes it out of the "HDV" range in my mind anyway.
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They can spin in a bunch of ways but it's still long GOP. Fine for some things (talking head interviews, etc) but not fine for action.

I'm happy to see Sony introduce a SS mem cam. I think this cam will push Pani to rev the HVX. FWIW, the HVX is still a "better" cam for my purposes. Great to have a choice, eh!

JohnG
 
John Godden said:
They can spin in a bunch of ways but it's still long GOP. Fine for some things (talking head interviews, etc) but not fine for action.

I'm happy to see Sony introduce a SS mem cam. I think this cam will push Pani to rev the HVX. FWIW, the HVX is still a "better" cam for my purposes. Great to have a choice, eh!
Click to expand...

35Mbit is a lot of bandwidth for a Long-GOP codec, especially when it's a VBR process. I certainly would agree with that assessment with standard Thin-Raster 25Mbit HDV, but I've been blown away by the EX1. In my tests (which were not exhaustive by any means) I couldn't break the codec. No obvious blocking or motion artifacting.

It is great to have choice, but it's a decision that should be made with suitable information - to write off the EX1 based solely on it's use of a Long-GOP codec is doing it a great disservice.

For my money the EX1 puts out the best pictures I've seen from any small-format HD camera.
 
John Godden said:
They can spin in a bunch of ways but it's still long GOP. Fine for some things (talking head interviews, etc) but not fine for action.

I'm happy to see Sony introduce a SS mem cam. I think this cam will push Pani to rev the HVX. FWIW, the HVX is still a "better" cam for my purposes. Great to have a choice, eh!

JohnG
Click to expand...

If you are only interested in talking heads in a fixed back ground setting then even under 10 Mbits/sec suffices. To me it appears that 35 Mbits/sec is not a small number and may be able to pull off many complex situations.
 
Can you guys explain what Long-GOP codec is?
 
Tom said:
Can you guys explain what Long-GOP codec is?
Click to expand...

My understanding is that its a fancy way of saying that B-type frames (bi-directional prediction) is possible in addition to P-type frames (one-directional prediction) from I-type frames. Its a term oft-quoted, but really not very useful, and many of the MPEG-2, MPEG-4, H.264 implementations would like to use B frames.
 
Wikipedia will:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_pictures

HDV/XDCAM HD/XDCAM EX uses a 15-frame GOP, so a full or 'I' frame is only recorded every 15 frames. All the frames in between the I-frames only store details on the difference in the frame.

This is the same overall concept as MPEG-2 as used in DVD and digital cable and satellite. Problems occur when the differences in motion in the frame exceed the amount that can be accurately captured in the data rate available. In these cases (think explosions, fast pans, things like that) the frame can 'break' where large amounts of blocking or tearing can become evident.

As the data rate increases the chance of this sort of problem decreases. Also the use of a variable bitrate helps, as it can provide more bandwidth when the picture becomes complex and recover it in other areas that are less complex.
 
Funny to try and compare the two.

I think that they serve very different markets but I think the reason that the subject came up on these forums is that they are both very competative products. however they are aimed at different markets.

Pros for the EX1:

Lens built in

LCD built in

EVF Built in

2 8gb cards bundled wit the the camera at the moment.

A very economical video to GB ratio

Compact and light

All for a fraction of the price of the RED ONE

Pros of the RED

s35 DOF

PL mount

Endless Firmware builds and quality enhancements

Modular design (cmos and other bits upgradeable)

4k

True singular frame codec

Fantastic build quality (SR3 quality and weight)

I see them as two different cameras. I have the EX1 and I have the red on order. I feel both the cameras and the projects they fit into are vastly different.

when I want a run and gun type setup I am not going to grab the RED

But I am not going to grab the EX1 for work that I feel is worthy of being recored with the utmost clarity.
 
John Godden said:
They can spin in a bunch of ways but it's still long GOP. Fine for some things (talking head interviews, etc) but not fine for action.

I'm happy to see Sony introduce a SS mem cam. I think this cam will push Pani to rev the HVX. FWIW, the HVX is still a "better" cam for my purposes. Great to have a choice, eh!

JohnG
Click to expand...

The EX shoots and records full raster. The HVX has 960x540 imagers and records 1280x1080 or 960x720 (or 1440x1080 in PAL land). If you want to compare the cameras you can't just cherry pick areas where you feel the HVX performs better. As an editor I have my own qualms w/GOP codecs, but in the reviews I've read and footage I've seen from HDV and XDCAM HD/EX cameras the "problem" of footage breaking up into mush seems to be more FUD than fact.

But this is going off topic so enjoy shooting w/the HVX since it meets your needs and let others enjoy using the tools that have proven to meet their needs.:wink:


-A
 
I just wanted to chime in and see I have used both the EX1 and Red extensively. Both are nice, but not in each others leagues by a long shot.

Ex1 is a nice run and gun camera with surprisingly nice image for 35mbit long gop and FCP editing with it is a total breeze. But you're not going to compete with a 4K Red image, especially shot with a nice set of primes. But then again you'll also be spending probably 85% less money too, so for different strokes each is.

-Noah
 
Lets put some number games on Ex1 Vs. Red.

First we shall ignore any lens effect on the sensors. Red is a high-quality camera, and the lenses people will use with it may be better than Ex1. Lenses makes a hell lot of difference on image spatial quality. However, lets ignore it.

According to Wikipedia Red's sensor has 4520×2540 pixels. Now, perhaps not all of them may be useful, as some of them may be devoted to black level monitoring, and also Red may be using a smaller window to avoid vignetting. However, lets ignore them also.

For 24 fps, and at 12 bits per pixel, Red would generate a data rate of:
4520×2540x12x24 = 413.3 MBytes/s = 3306.5 Mbits/s.

In an earlier post we calculated the effective Red-Bayer (4520×2540) to a 3-CCD 1920x1080 ratio as being 2 in spatial terms.

However, that does not mean that Ex1 would require 3306.6 / 2 = 1653 Mbits/s to have the same image quality as Red. For various reasons a rule of thumb is when the resolution is halved the factor is square root of 2. Hence, the effective data rate required by Ex1 to match the Red's visual quality would be:

3306.6 / 2^(1/2) = 2338.1 Mbits/sec.

Now, Ex1 claims a VBR data rate of 35 Mbits/sec. Hence, the normalized relative "quality ratio" is:

2338.1 / 35 = 1:66

This I leave up to users to comment that whether it is good or bad.
 
Joofa

I wished I knew a fraction of the information people here provide. It is very educational to read some of the post. I regret I do not have anything of value to add. I can tell you that a new airlline is now servicing Austin to Cancun Mexico. They have specials for $9.99 plus taxes. I used them my last trip and Like Red it is not a scam. It is a RED smoking hot deal!!!

The EX1 fills a need and the budget for some. We all know that RED is much better. For some having a car that does 300 miles an hour does not help if all you can do is drive 60mph. Red is now and the future. Anythings less is now and the past
2261_1202772452.jpg
 
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