EX1 vs. RED

[Joel Kaye]

That's exactly what I intend to do. Get rid of the HVX and get an EX1. Then get a Red for higher-end work. I've had so much work over the past 3 years where an EX1 would have been perfect.

That sure has been my thinking. However, I have so many friends with an EX1 that I think it would be easy to work out some RED trades. None of them are going to have a RED anytime soon.

 

[Michael Booth]

My plan actually is to get an EX1, because a lot of work from it will help pay for the Red. Then keep the EX1, for it's size/low-light/low-noise/available light capabilities

I think, Red aside, it's a good little camera. And I think having the both of them will mean you have a camera for all occasions.

If Red weren't around a lot more noise would have been made about the EX1.

 

[Greg David]

If Red weren't around a lot more noise would have been made about the EX1.

what?

 

[Illya Friedman]

Where as the higher end cameras such as Dalsa and others can give you true 1920 x 1080.

As can the EX1 (albeit sampled at 4:2:0 so more like 1920x1080 Luma and 960x540 Chroma).

Red clearly has more pixels than anything else even remotely in the same league (price and availability wise). But that's not all that matters I guess.

This is not true.

The images from DALSA digital cinema cameras have a resolution of 4046x2048, uncompressed. The DALSA cameras use a proprietary imaging sensor with the highest fill-factor in the industry. The resulting images are widely regarded as possessing more visible resolution and dynamic range than any other digital cinema camera available anywhere.


I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Poi Boy]

Illya, touchy, touchy,

this part of Sycophant's quote is clearly true.

"Red clearly has more pixels than anything else even remotely in the same league (price and availability wise)."

Aloha
-A

 

[Alexis Vanier]

In regard to colour resolution I'd like to drop something of my own experience. I've just finished two HVX low budget features, one shot with the redrock 35mm DoF adapter and one without. I'll have to say that colour resolution is VERY relevant when you get to grading. It dramatically reduces the range you have for correction as chroma grain becomes much more rapidly evident.

Those sneezing at 4:2:0... may continue doing so with my support.

(But the EX1 does look cool... Nice stock lens manual controls, lot of features, offspeed, p2-like media but cheaper, I'd bet my sound guy 'd say the audio section is poo (maritimer)... but I'm not sure I'd shoot anything narrative with it unless I had nothing to say about gear choice. Would make for one great vacation cam though...)

 

[Dylan Reeve]

In regard to colour resolution I'd like to drop something of my own experience. I've just finished two HVX low budget features, one shot with the redrock 35mm DoF adapter and one without. I'll have to say that colour resolution is VERY relevant when you get to grading. It dramatically reduces the range you have for correction as chroma grain becomes much more rapidly evident.

Those sneezing at 4:2:0... may continue doing so with my support.

It's not a simple as this. Granted I haven't compared the cameras head-to-head, but I am familar with the footage from both.

While the DVCPRO HD from the HVX is 4:2:2, it's not quite that simple. The sensors in the HVX are only 540-lines, even with the pixel-shifting they employ they still only have a measured resolution of 540-lines. So you're getting roughly the same vertical resolution with the HVX. With the EX1 you get 960px horizontal chroma resolution from the 1920px sensor. With the HVX it's 1440px sampled at :2:2 so you get 720px horizontal chroma resolution in theory.

Given the low resolution of the HVX sensor, and the thin-raster image it employs, I've heard it said that it's more 2:1.5:1.5 sampling.

(But the EX1 does look cool... Nice stock lens manual controls, lot of features, offspeed, p2-like media but cheaper, I'd bet my sound guy 'd say the audio section is poo (maritimer)... but I'm not sure I'd shoot anything narrative with it unless I had nothing to say about gear choice. Would make for one great vacation cam though...)

It certainly has the best lens I've ever used on a camera it's size. As for the audio, I'll admit I didn't test it. But I think it qualifies as much more than a vacation camera (although I'll admit I did try to borrow one for the vacation I am ostensibly on right now)

 

[Illya Friedman]

Odd. I don't recall any mention of "league" or "price" being in the line of text I originally quoted.

I also quoted Joofa, because I wanted to correct his(or her) mistake. Sycophant quoted Joofa's original quote as well. I wouldn't want anyone to be confused, by the mistake and then the repeat of the mistake. No one should think that we've built cameras for digital cinema that are just using 1920x1080 imaging sensors.

Regardless, I'll concede. The imaging performance of the DALSA cameras is in another league, and it is totally unfair to compare the two.

I.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Odd. I don't recall any mention of "league" or "price" being in the line of text I originally quoted.

I also quoted Joofa, because I wanted to correct his(or her) mistake. Sycophant quoted Joofa's original quote as well. I wouldn't want anyone to be confused, by the mistake and then the repeat of the mistake. No one should think that we've built cameras for digital cinema that are just using 1920x1080 imaging sensors.

Regardless, I'll concede. The imaging performance of the DALSA cameras is in another league, and it is totally unfair to compare the two.

I.

Hey Illya,

I've see you post here a few times... And certainly I don't think anyone would deny the overall features and capability of the Dalsa Origin. And perhaps it's not fair to compare the two... But would you?

This is probably derailing a little, but can you tell us if you've played with a RED One, and what you impressions are? I certainly don't expect you to give it the glowing review that some might, but you come at it from a very unique perspective. I've coaxed fairly candid reviews of Panasonic cameras from Sony exec's before, and seen similar from Panasonic stalwarts...

So Illya, how does the RED stack up, in your opinion? Clearly for the core Dalsa market RED is not a competitor, but for many who have wanted some of what Dalsa offers it is the answer to prayers... What do you think?

 

[Mitch Gross]

You don't really want that answer, do you?

Mitch

 

[Illya Friedman]

Hey Illya,

I've see you post here a few times... And certainly I don't think anyone would deny the overall features and capability of the Dalsa Origin. And perhaps it's not fair to compare the two... But would you?

The goal of my posts here is generally to correct errors. So, the short answer is no. While I may be quite opinionated, I'll refrain because it's just not appropriate in this public forum. Never mind the fact that this thread is still an EX1 vs. RED comparison, which I'm guessing will become a popular cost/performance comparison among a number of forums in the coming months.


I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Dj Joofa]

I also quoted Joofa, because I wanted to correct his(or her) mistake. Sycophant quoted Joofa's original quote as well. I wouldn't want anyone to be confused, by the mistake and then the repeat of the mistake. No one should think that we've built cameras for digital cinema that are just using 1920x1080 imaging sensors.

I.

Thanks Illya Friedman, I stand corrected. I really appreciate your information that I misspoke about.

 

[Illya Friedman]

Thanks Mr. Friedman, I stand corrected. I really appreciate your information that I misspoke about.

No problem at all. There's a lot of information (and mis-information) that floats around in this business. It's impossible for any one person to know everything. That's why I'm happy to make myself available to answer questions (and make corrections) should they arise.


I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Alexis Vanier]

... While the DVCPRO HD from the HVX is 4:2:2, it's not quite that simple. The sensors in the HVX are only 540-lines, even with the pixel-shifting they employ they still only have a measured resolution of 540-lines. So you're getting roughly the same vertical resolution with the HVX. With the EX1 you get 960px horizontal chroma resolution from the 1920px sensor. With the HVX it's 1440px sampled at :2:2 so you get 720px horizontal chroma resolution in theory.

Given the low resolution of the HVX sensor, and the thin-raster image it employs, I've heard it said that it's more 2:1.5:1.5 sampling.

I have to say I agree. My point was the it became very obvious to me as I shot with the HVX. I'd actually be even more worried about correcting 4:2:0 !

What's the deal with the EX1? Is there just a really good sensor in there or is it another sensor offset spawn?

 

[fightordie]

The EX may put out a great image but what can be done to it in post. How easy does the image fall apart with serious grading and effects? The REd is raw. Designed to be post traumatized and still keep a good image. You won't get that with the EX.

 

[Álex Montoya]

Never mind the fact that this thread is still an EX1 vs. RED comparison, which I'm guessing will become a popular cost/performance comparison among a number of forums in the coming months.

You don't want to opinate but you do it indeed, stating that this is a fair comparison.

I've seen the frame grabs from your site and I'm not really impressed. Most of the grabs don't show much resolution, and I am talking about the Anthony Hopkins one or the girl on or the one with the butterfly, which barely overcome the 2K effective resolution.

 

[mezmo]

A 4.2.2 version of the EX1 would be on my shopping list.
Mezmo

 

[Dylan Reeve]

The EX may put out a great image but what can be done to it in post. How easy does the image fall apart with serious grading and effects? The REd is raw. Designed to be post traumatized and still keep a good image. You won't get that with the EX.

Well, again, EX vs. RED is hardly fair, you certainly can't do with EX footage what you can with RAW from RED... But that's true of any non-RAW image.

As long as the EX footage is being manipulated in a suitable format, it seems to hold up well to grading and effects. Like most compressed formats, it benefits hugely from having these things done in a non-compressed (or less compressed) format.

 

[John Godden]

The EX1 is the best small-form-factor camera I have used. But the pictures I have from the EX1 don't hold a candle to the RED pictures I have - the RAW nature of RED's images alone assure it of that. Perhpas the EX1 has a dynamic range approaching (exceeding?) that of RED, but that is not the only measure of a camera clearly.

Certainly the EX1 is a great camera (and an HVX-killer I think) and Adam's review of it just cemented that for me, but it really is apples and oranges with the RED.

We have a tendency to want to compare things, and we do so by grasping hold of easily comparable factors (dynamic range, pixels, framerate, samplng method, imaging type) and simply comparing them - it fails to look at th whole picture.

I fail to see how the EX1 is an "HVX killer". They are quite different tools and the codecs are sufficiently different to make a 'simple comparison' impossible.

regards
JohnG

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Never mind the fact that this thread is still an EX1 vs. RED comparison, which I'm guessing will become a popular cost/performance comparison among a number of forums in the coming months.

You're hilarious, really.

To insinuate that there is actually a case for a comparison between the RED and EX1 shows that you're just here to throw rocks. You know for a fact there is no comparison to be made between the two in either cost or performance.

We all know that you have issues with RED and a key employee of RED in particular, but there's no reason to come on here to pester people with indirect/sly comments like that.

I appreciate you sharing your insight and knowledge, but there's no need for anything aside from that.

While we're sitting around throwing out cheap shots though.......

http://www.postcardsfromthefuture.net/trailer.php

Nuff said.