EX1 vs. RED

[Mark Pedersen]

I've attached two frames from a couple of my EX1 clips. They are fairly arbitrary really. There is mosquito noise on edges, and some visible compression on fine detail, but it's far more evident as a still than it is in motion. I have DVCPRO HD clips that look much worse (from HVX and Varicam).

These are 1920x1080 100% quality JPEGs (from PNG exported from FCP)

Have you tried recording the HDSDI out to a HDCAM deck? That would eliminate any MPEG compression, right? Should look awesome (for HD).

I'm planning to buy an EX1 AND a Red...and target them at two different categories of jobs. Red for digital cinema style production and workflow for high end jobs, w/primes etc. EXI - for lower budget, interview driven, "gun and run" corporate work where small, light, ergonomic makes more sense than a fully featured, 4K camera. Remember the days when we chose Video or Film depending on budget?

What's great is both are solid state recording systems.

Interesting to see the flurry of comparisons to Red though.... but there really isn't any real comparison here if you want to get to the level Red is at.

BTW, anyone want to buy a Canon XLH1 with a mini-35 adaptor??

M

 

[Charles Papert]

Policar:

True enough, the EX1 with adaptor (and flip module) was pretty slow, I rated it somewhere around 160-200. I didn't have the opportunity to test it without adaptor as it turns out, but I would guess 400. Certainly with RED you can rate it quite a bit higher if you choose to. But in this instance the stage and lighting package was given to us; had I shot on location I would have approached the lighting differently. I have shot quite a few things with the Mini35 and a humble lighting package, you just have to go about it a little differently.

Joelnet:

Funny you should mention the audio--I'm not sure if anyone has yet. The film is 90% ADR (no wonder it sounds good)! The sound guy boomed and had three wires amongst the five actors, but I assumed he was putting the boom on a discrete channel. When I got the footage home I discovered he had mixed it all together. Lots of scratchiness and a wide range of muffled and shoddy tracks. I also re-wrote some of the dialogue, particularly the monologue while the son is coming down the stairs, so it became apparent that ADR was going to be the solution. All of the father's lines required re-recording (his track was the worst), and once that was done, it made the other tracks stand out, so thus began some 50 hours of recording, sound editing and foley to build back all of the ambience. I've never had to tackle this to such an extent, but it was a good learning experience.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

The EX codec is not to be confused with the word HDV, It's actually closer to the more mature XDCAM codec MPEG IMX.

I believe you are mistaken. XDCAM SD is 30, 40 or 50 Mb/s CBR I-Frame only MPEG2. Specifically this is MPEG2 422P@ML (4:2:2 Profile@Main Level).

HDV is 15-frame Long-GOP MPEG-2 MP@H-14 at 25Mb/s CBR. XDCAM HD introduces 18 and 35Mbit/s VBR (still thin-raster H-14 Level). XDCAM EX adds a 35Mbit/s VBR full raster 1920x1080 (MP@HL) - it is essentially HDV, but a number of generations down.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Have you tried recording the HDSDI out to a HDCAM deck? That would eliminate any MPEG compression, right? Should look awesome (for HD).

M

My impression is that HDCAM is also internally using either MPEG or MPEG-type compression with an additional caveat of 1440×1080 resolution, where as the HD-SDI is 1920x1080 -- but that does not mean that the sensor chip was actually capturing true 1920x1080. HDCAM-SR can manage 1920x1080 and do MPEG-4.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I've never had to tackle this to such an extent, but it was a good learning experience.

Thanks. Yeah, I notice audio.

3 wires and a boom. So am I reading that correctly as 3 wireless units and one boom? Obviously, they all should have been separated in the mix - would that have solved the problem? You mention scratchiness etc. from the boom op? Or clothes rustling on wireless units?

I guess I'm getting at: what's the best what to nail that sound on location so you can avoid ADR if possible. Thanks for any insight.

I will add that even though the RED footage is tiny online it still looks terrific and brings with it that 35mm feel.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Have you tried recording the HDSDI out to a HDCAM deck? That would eliminate any MPEG compression, right? Should look awesome (for HD).

I have not, I was going to run the HD-SDI straight into the Decklink card, but I ran out of time with my test camera. The HD-SDI tap is direct from the imaging block at does avoid any compression.

I'm planning to buy an EX1 AND a Red...and target them at two different categories of jobs. Red for digital cinema style production and workflow for high end jobs, w/primes etc. EXI - for lower budget, interview driven, "gun and run" corporate work where small, light, ergonomic makes more sense than a fully featured, 4K camera. Remember the days when we chose Video or Film depending on budget?

The EX1 is pretty well suited to that sort of shooting, but lacks a little in the ergonomics department, so without some addons it may be hard to use on longer reality shoots and the like.

What's great is both are solid state recording systems.

Yeah, with all the pros and cons associated with that... Personally I'm a little disappointed by the lack of openness in the solid-state media involved.

Interesting to see the flurry of comparisons to Red though.... but there really isn't any real comparison here if you want to get to the level Red is at.

Personally I wouldn't have thought to compare them, they are clearly very different beasts. But people like to compare things.

 

[Álex Montoya]

I've played a bit with the images that are available in the test you posted.

My results is that the EX1 gives an approximate effective resolution of 1400 pixels horizontally, where the RED has around 2800. That's approx. 4 times more pixels with the RED and it shows at simple sight.

The color resolution should be better with the RED since the debayer algorithms are more sophisticated than simple interpolation.

I agree that the EX1 should yield better results if you record the uncompressed HD-SDI signal and use a 35mm adapter. BUT, suddenly your post workflow budget has multiplied by 10 and you're handling a camera that is no longer light, easy to operate or with "batteries that last forever".

For sure there will be many projects that can use the EX1, but right now my first choice for fiction would be RED by far.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Would it be possible to shoot a feature on an EX1? Based on my experiences, yes, and it could look very good. Would it look better on RED? Yes, it should... at a certain point the differences become pretty subtle.

Very nice clips Charles, thanks for posing them.
You say that RED "should" look better than the EX1, I don't doubt it, but the question is obviously: how much better? The resolution difference is indisputable, but I think that latitude and the camera's native ISO (or how much it can be pushed in post) are more important once we pass the true 1080P barrier. I honestly have not been very impressed with the RED clips I've seen posted here in the last few weeks. Take the LART fight scene: after the grade, clipping can easily be seen in the faces of the fighters and the walls etc. That's not "amazing" "oh my god, it's like I've delivered a baby" footage.., it looks like HD. Which is cool, but in the case of the EX1, RED is a worse camera in every respect except it's picture (by which I mean that it is: heavier, bulkier, more difficult to use, more difficult to post produce, more difficult to transport, and more expensive). So I'm really keen to discover how much better the picture is Especially as I'd be using either camera for filming documentaries most of the time.

Concrete: I understand when you say you would definitely use RED for fiction, but would you be so sure if you were filming a doc for TV broadcast?

Give me a break ! EX1 is a great camcorder but doesn't belong in the same sentence with Red.
-A

Poi Boy: I'm sure you are right but I'm looking for proof:innocent: After Build 15 we should really do a proper full-on side by side test.. But I have to say, Charles's clips spoke a thousand words...

 

[vincelucero]

If EX is a hdv format with I-frames it will never be an HVX-killer.

It's taking the place of our HVX in the rental scene. What do you consider a "killer?"

 

[Álex Montoya]

but would you be so sure if you were filming a doc for TV broadcast?

It depends on the type of doc but the EX1 would definitely be a choice.

What I tried to express is that the EX1 has a lot of advantages as is. You have to embrace MPEG-2 recording and probably not use a 35mm adapter to get it to be an interesting tool for certain point and shoot docs.

 

[Charles Papert]

Thanks. Yeah, I notice audio.

3 wires and a boom. So am I reading that correctly as 3 wireless units and one boom? Obviously, they all should have been separated in the mix - would that have solved the problem? You mention scratchiness etc. from the boom op? Or clothes rustling on wireless units?

I guess I'm getting at: what's the best what to nail that sound on location so you can avoid ADR if possible. Thanks for any insight.

The scratchiness came through the lavs, from the clothes apparently. During the dad's ADR session he said, "yeah, the sound guy mentioned to me that he was having trouble hearing my shirt". Not that he mentioned it to ME, unfortunately! Yes, if he had isolated the boom I think a lot more of the tracks would have been salvageable. I believe he came from a reality-tv/doc type background so I think his M.O. was just to get voices on tape, period--not the right approach for a film and something I will look out for in the future.

Sorry if this has gotten off-track fellas.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Charles,

very nice written, shot and directed short movies.

 

[Álex Montoya]

Nice short film, Charles.

Anyway, I think it is a good example of how the EX1 falls short in comparison to the RED. Even though the cinematography and overall execution is very good, the image is a bit soft and somehow lacks the stylization the RED offers.

 

[Charles Papert]

I should add that on the EX1 piece I did use a diffusion filter in post as I found the image too crisp, particularly on the actresses' faces. And there was a bit of image softening due to the ground glass. I think that in the 1080p realm, the EX1 is not a soft camera by any means.

Certainly I would have loved to have had the RED on the same set and seen how it would have interpreted this setup.

 

[Peter Östlund]

A killer is a killer. It's a whole system where support and attitude from the companies is important. Personally I think the mix between HVX200 and AJ-HPX3000 is interesting.

 

[Miko Meloni]

Why not to compare?
If for someone it's possible, i should like to know what's the difference into
HQ 35 Mb of EX1 and 2k RAW of RED : talking about image quality and compression.
Someone know the bitrate of the RED's 2K (more or less 20 min. for
a 8 GB compact flash?) ?

 

[Joel Kaye]

Personally I think the mix between HVX200 and AJ-HPX3000 is interesting.

They have that already. It's called an EX1.

Charles, if you have a clip or snapshot before the diffusion was added to table manners that would be interesting to look at. I have a REDROCK here, a friend has a new Brevis flip (only a couple out there) and I have like 5 friends that now have EX1's. It's safe to say I'll get to test these things vs. RED to some degree.

For a doc I'd shoot an EX1 personally. Actually, anything that didn't need 35mm DOF. You can dial the sharpness down in that camera. In fact, the in camera picture controls may be the most extensive of any small camera.

 

[Policar]

Thanks for the information, but just one thing doesn't add up: if the EX1 is 400ISO and with an adapter you're rating it at 200ISO, it would imply light gain simply because:

Let's say you're shooting wide open without an adapter: f1.9 at 400ISO
Then let's say you're shooting with a fast cinema lens and an adapter: t1.3 at 200ISO.

Well, both let in the same amount of light, because one lens is a stop faster and the other's ISO rating is a stop faster. And this would imply no light loss (or a stop gain if you got your hands on a theoretical t1 lens). Or were you rating based on the f-stop at the relay lens, leaving the taking lens (cinema lens) wide open? Not questioning your methods, just curious, because it's a stop difference one way or the other. But either way that's pretty fast for an adapter set-up, which is great. And the short does look and sound awesome.

Personally, I'd be pretty happy to get my hands on either camera...still shooting on a dvx.

 

[Greg David]

. Anybody snorting the codec kool-aid is welcome to it. The pictures never lie.

Dood you have me rolling on the floor

 

[Michael Booth]

I'm planning to buy an EX1 AND a Red...and target them at two different categories of jobs. Red for digital cinema style production and workflow for high end jobs, w/primes etc. EXI - for lower budget, interview driven, "gun and run" corporate work where small, light, ergonomic makes more sense than a fully featured, 4K camera. Remember the days when we chose Video or Film depending on budget?

That's exactly what I intend to do. Get rid of the HVX and get an EX1. Then get a Red for higher-end work. I've had so much work over the past 3 years where an EX1 would have been perfect.