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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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CocoBermudez said:
oh snap!...

Thanks Emanuel ...you are right....I am the black sheep of the family...my mom still changes the conversation every time a friend of hers asks what I do for a living....WTH!
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Thanks for the laugh. I will advise my mom to take some lectures with yours or maybe she does/did not need formal education and has learned how to do it by herself... LOL :D
 
CocoBermudez said:
oh snap!...

Thanks Emanuel ...you are right....I am the black sheep of the family...my mom still changes the conversation every time a friend of hers asks what I do for a living....WTH!

By the way...thanks for the heads up on the aspect ration...got to learn me some Vimeo 101....
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Great little piece Coco, thoroughly enjoyed it.
 
You have some nice values, which people will not understand.

I agree that one should always put his best foot forward. If one can't give his best shot because of whatever considerations, it is better to decline.
One thing is certain in life and that is competition. Digital Film camera technology is not mature. It is evolving. So prices will always go down. Good for the consumer.
Cheers,
Sabyasachi


CocoBermudez said:
With my business model, it will take me years to recoup my camera investments.

Don't get me wrong...I try to get decent rates for my equipment, but I also have to understand my clients...mostly Non-Profit organizations.

So..do i say "Well Non-Profit Company X, seeing that you have a limited budget, I am going to shoot your video with the crappiest piece of camera we own"?

My father taught me to always wear a suit to a meeting...not only will you look good, but it will make you feel good too. Point being, everything I do is an extension of myself...I always want my work to reflect my best...hence, I will whip out my RED any day on any project.

Sometimes the math doesn't add up (it drives our accountant mad!)...maybe that's why I'm not financially well off. Yet I do get immense satisfaction every time we show final product...knowing that I've always chosen the best tool to get the job done.

If prices go down...oh well...good for the next generation of filmmakers. I learned this lesson years ago when I invested almost 100K on a MEDIA 100 only to see Final Cut obliterate its value.....
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Lowering the prices is all good and what not, but do you see ARRI lowering the price of the Alexa... nope. Why is that? Because they are not going to play hardball with Canon, a company hardly even worth it. Therefore the Alexa will continue to be seen as the superior product. The rental value of the Alexa will continue to be upheld and the owners will continue to be satisfied. But RED has taken the other road, at of course the expense of the product owners. Customer loyalty is getting thrown out the window here, and people on this forum at least are shouting for joy at the fact. They just can't wait to get their hands on a cheaper RED product. Something more affordable, yes I have been waiting on this day, is what they are saying. Whereas the current owners are getting the shaft with investment quality and rental rates. I will still buy RED products but I will never again buy another camera body from them. I am not personally attacking any of you, so please refrain from personally attacking me, as I'm sure your already thinking about as you read this.
 
You should realise that RED makes camera mainly for working cinematographers, that is why they have a forum and they talk directly to the customers. How many companies try to justify their business decision by announcing to customers about a price change, As a rental house you should only invest on a Rental product like Arri Alexa,It will always seems to be a good product just with its legacy and name and their steep price ....
 
I totally agree, ARRI Alexa is what I should have bought instead of a SCARLET and an EPIC. I could not agree more with your post! It would have after all been the same price pretty much.

Selvakumar said:
You should realise that RED makes camera mainly for working cinematographers, that is why they have a forum and they talk directly to the customers. How many companies try to justify their business decision by announcing to customers about a price change, As a rental house you should only invest on a Rental product like Arri Alexa,It will always seems to be a good product just with its legacy and name and their steep price ....
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Wow, I could not disagree more. Then again we are a commercial production company, not a rental house.
 
Jon Jones said:
Lowering the prices is all good and what not, but do you see ARRI lowering the price of the Alexa... nope. Why is that? Because they are not going to play hardball with Canon, a company hardly even worth it. Therefore the Alexa will continue to be seen as the superior product. The rental value of the Alexa will continue to be upheld and the owners will continue to be satisfied. But RED has taken the other road, at of course the expense of the product owners. Customer loyalty is getting thrown out the window here, and people on this forum at least are shouting for joy at the fact. They just can't wait to get their hands on a cheaper RED product. Something more affordable, yes I have been waiting on this day, is what they are saying. Whereas the current owners are getting the shaft with investment quality and rental rates. I will still buy RED products but I will never again buy another camera body from them. I am not personally attacking any of you, so please refrain from personally attacking me, as I'm sure your already thinking about as you read this.
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Sorry but do not agree!

RED has the blockbusters to document their production quality, but has a much more volume oriented userbase than ARRI.

As far as I can see, ARRI has a much stronger hold on the volume/rental/commercial/rental market than RED, and probably has the volumes they need to sustain their prices.

RED has a much larger and much more mixed userbase, ranging from say "me" to PJ.

You cannot find the same diversity in ARRIs customerbase. My guess is that they still have sustainable volumes for their pricing model.

I am not saying red does not have that, but my guess is that there is a much stronger relation between price and volume on REDs products, and if the prices can be cut, they will get a much higher userbase.

Why there is such a difference can be argued many ways.
It is certainly not because of final image quality.

But userbase and expectations differ. And so do the price and volume models.

That is my guess.

AND it is also about making space for Dagon...
 
Jon Jones said:
Lowering the prices is all good and what not, but do you see ARRI lowering the price of the Alexa... nope. Why is that? Because they are not going to play hardball with Canon, a company hardly even worth it. Therefore the Alexa will continue to be seen as the superior product. The rental value of the Alexa will continue to be upheld and the owners will continue to be satisfied. But RED has taken the other road, at of course the expense of the product owners. Customer loyalty is getting thrown out the window here, and people on this forum at least are shouting for joy at the fact. They just can't wait to get their hands on a cheaper RED product. Something more affordable, yes I have been waiting on this day, is what they are saying. Whereas the current owners are getting the shaft with investment quality and rental rates. I will still buy RED products but I will never again buy another camera body from them. I am not personally attacking any of you, so please refrain from personally attacking me, as I'm sure your already thinking about as you read this.
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I'm not attacking you. I just want to point out isn't the whole point of owning a RED that you don't have to buy another camera body? aren't you gonna upgrade to Dragon for $6k? I mean I don't think you got shafted nor do I feel bad for you. Arri isn't dropping their prices cause that's what Arri does. some will argue that the value will stay high and blah blah, but I think all that does is limit how many arri's actually get bought by the consumer. and maybe arri doesn't care cause they generate enough revenue through other means then retail. and ARRI is ARRI they've been around forever and aren't going anywhere. what we all love about RED is that they brought amazing cameras to all for very affordable prices. this price drop just does that again. and the value in the upgradeability and support is priceless, but people don't really seem to appreciate that and only think of the bottom line. I'm not sure how much longer I would keep trying to please all my customers if I was Jim or Jared when I see the negativity out there when I am forced to make a business decision for the sake of the company. The price drop has to be done. I'm sure they don't want it all that badly themselves. who wants to make less money? looking at the state of the market and the rise in competition at lower prices, it is inevitable. wish people like you didn't feel so hosed by it. but I'm sure in a couple months time you'll upgrade to Dragon and have a big smile on your face.
 
The upgrade to Dragon is good and all, and I'm excited for it. Canon baited RED with the c300, and RED took it, hook, line, and sinker. Canon has tons of products to help support them, but RED has 2 products. EPIC and SCARLET. How long do you think they can keep going down in price before Canon wins? I would be willing to bet that the Canon company can support delivering 4k camera's at 5 grand each. And I would also be willing to bet that they will go there, just to get rid of RED. Where will we be as customers of RED with hundreds of thousands of bucks invested that will then be worth tens of thousands? Ask yourself that before you buy another RED camera.

John semikian said:
I'm not attacking you. I just want to point out isn't the whole point of owning a RED that you don't have to buy another camera body? aren't you gonna upgrade to Dragon for $6k? I mean I don't think you got shafted nor do I feel bad for you. Arri isn't dropping their prices cause that's what Arri does. some will argue that the value will stay high and blah blah, but I think all that does is limit how many arri's actually get bought by the consumer. and maybe arri doesn't care cause they generate enough revenue through other means then retail. and ARRI is ARRI they've been around forever and aren't going anywhere. what we all love about RED is that they brought amazing cameras to all for very affordable prices. this price drop just does that again. and the value in the upgradeability and support is priceless, but people don't really seem to appreciate that and only think of the bottom line. I'm not sure how much longer I would keep trying to please all my customers if I was Jim or Jared when I see the negativity out there when I am forced to make a business decision for the sake of the company. The price drop has to be done. I'm sure they don't want it all that badly themselves. who wants to make less money? looking at the state of the market and the rise in competition at lower prices, it is inevitable. wish people like you didn't feel so hosed by it. but I'm sure in a couple months time you'll upgrade to Dragon and have a big smile on your face.
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In the end analysis, RED needs to arrive at a pricing strategy that benefits the overall REDCODE based acquisition solution (Brain, Meizler module, accessories, media, Red Rocket 2 etc). That is the only winning scenario here. And it will benefit ALL RED Troops, current and future.

Dropping just the price of the brain will be a misfire IMHO. And as far as competing with Sony, or Canon is concerned, RED hopefully knows that buying those cameras was never and will NEVER be in my list of options as I'm heavily invested with both money and time, in the RED Acquisition/Workflow - and this includes more than just the brain.

I hope, hope, hope RED is listening. We need the benefits of RED's decision to lower prices to positively lower the cost of the entire solution (atleast for the EPIC) that directly competes with, or wants to compete with Alexa and other equivalent cameras coming out, and this benefit should go to ALL RED Troops, current and future.
 
I share some of Jon Jones sentiment. Like him I am worried what will happen to the rental prices. I'm mostly a owner and operator and have to base my prices for shoots on some type of model. If my day prices are too low I will get shit from other local operators. Obviously I don't want to face a situation where my day rate is low and I can't keep up with new purchases. The perceived value of my camera affects my day rate. I'm not so lofty in the industry where people are hiring me just for my skills. They are mostly hiring me because I'm a RED owner and operator.

In some ways I wish we can go back to the days where none of us could afford a 250k cinema camera and we were hired just for skill. The truth is that clients expect us to own equipment now.
 
Jon Jones said:
The upgrade to Dragon is good and all, and I'm excited for it. Canon baited RED with the c300, and RED took it, hook, line, and sinker. Canon has tons of products to help support them, but RED has 2 products. EPIC and SCARLET. How long do you think they can keep going down in price before Canon wins? I would be willing to bet that the Canon company can support delivering 4k camera's at 5 grand each. And I would also be willing to bet that they will go there, just to get rid of RED. Where will we be as customers of RED with hundreds of thousands of bucks invested that will then be worth tens of thousands? Ask yourself that before you buy another RED camera.
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Canon is coming out with a 4k DSLR soon the 1DC and it will be priced around $13k and it will be ready to shoot at that price (of course you will need a lens) .. but that camera will not effect EPICs as DSLRs are a totally different market. If Canon were to make a Cinema Camera as sophisticated as the RED that shoots at least 4k it would be priced higher then there DSLR. Sony's F5 is coming in at around $16k - $20k, and I'm willing to bet the F55 will also be under $30k. I think the future of these types of cameras lies right around that price point, depending on features anywhere from $15k to $30k. (lets not forget RED already delivers a 4k camera for $11k in Scarlet). you're $5k talk makes really no sense. although I'm sure the day will come in a decade where you can get a brand new 4k camera for $5k as the more pricey options shoot 10k images or something.
 
I thought the EPIC would be side by side with the Alexa, and that is what people were saying. But now I'm sure they they will be saying this.... Well if you want the best get the Alexa, but if your on a budget then get the RED camera. The ARRI marketing strives for that name, and now RED is helping to make that possible. If it were me doing the marketing. I would never lower the price. I would either make a cheaper product or just ride the fads out. And the whole race with Canon to the bottom of the price floor is just that, a fad. ARRI Alexa will still be 80k, and still be renting for almost 2k per day. For our production house, the RED camera system is great, but the price of the camera package built into the budget submitted to clients is based on the value of the camera, The value of the camera is based mostly on the rental value, ergo the value of the camera intrinsically is lowered by the cost of the camera.
 
Well, I'm happy about the price decrease. RED doesn't play by the rules, that's what makes them unique and exciting! I can understand why some would be upset. Recently my brother and I had purchased a copy of MARI, a 3D texturing software made by The Foundry. It was right after this year's Siggraph convention and the new version packed all these new features that were vital to what we're working on right now that we had to get it. A few days after the show we got an e-mail about a half-off deal for Siggraph attendees. Needless to say we were seriously bummed that we had just lost a good deal of money because of the sale. Thankfully we contacted the company we purchase software from and they worked it all out for us in the end. However that initial feeling of loss and frustration is something I won't be able to forget for a while, not that I'm still upset or anything but as something to learn from and remember for the future. Current Epic owners shouldn't be so upset that they toss in the towel, so to speak, but should instead focus on how they can make these changes work in their favor. A decrease in price on the Epics isn't going to take away all the people out there with new uncompressed HDSLRs, BMCs, or even new RED One and Scarlet owners, all it could do is add a few more Epic owners and less of a financial hit if you need a second or third Epic.
 
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